South Wales local services - Pembroke, Fishguard, Swanline, etc.

[whole diary]

[Jez]

The swanline on Saturday was very heavily used in both directions, probabaly due to the lead up to Christmas, but im sure if it was hourly on Monday-Saturday more people would use it. I think its cheaper than using a bus.  I was quite surprised to see the platforms at Briton Ferry, Skewen and Llansamlet packed with people waiting. Didnt realise it was quite so well used. More people seem to use it to go to Swansea rather than Cardiff tho which is prob cos Swansea is nearer to the smaller stations (apart from Pyle).  On a Sunday they should run a Swanline service at least 2-3 times during the day. Even if it was part of the Manchester service as it used to be. I assume there werent the passenger numbers on Sunday hence them not calling at these stations (apart from Pyle)

Im not sure what is running the Pembs line now. Ive not had experience of this line since summer.  I did notice the 11.14 swanline from Cardiff was a 150 yesterday (which would have formed the early Heart of Wales - Cardiff service). That went onto Platform 1 after terminating at Swansea and would have formed the 13xx service onto the HOW line. Usually its a 153 isnt it but it was lucky it was a 150 with the extra passengers on Swanline. People were standing as it was.  I think both the Swanline's were 150's yesterday, although one swaps with the HOW line so im not sure if that was a 153? I think 150s do turn up on HOW quite a lot as units are swapped between Swanline/HOW/Shrewbury-Crewe

There was talk about the Swanline's going as far as Port Talbot and becoming hourly. In theory this could be run by 1 unit - for example

13.10 Swansea  calling at Llansamlet/Skewen
13.25 Neath calling at Briton Ferry/Baglan
13.36 Port Talbot 

and return

13.38 Port Talbot
13.49 Neath
14.07 Swansea

Be a very tight turnaround but not impossible??? Also would avoid the train having to wait around in Port Talbot as there is limited space. Cant see it happening tho, I think the Swanline will always go as far as Cardiff. It would also mean Pyle having to be served by the Manchester service at least once every 2 hours.


Why does the 17.10 call at Pontyclun? Isnt this service covered by the 17.40ish from Bridgend to Cardiff/Cheltenham? Some early morning Manchester services call at Pyle and Llanharan but not Pontyclun and vice versa sometimes, but I guess thats to additional capacity for people to get into Cardiff.

if the Ebbw Vale service gets extended to Maesteg then im guessing additional units will be needed unless they can make it from Cardiff-Maesteg and back in less than 1 hour.

 

[Jez]

Another thing I noticed at Swansea was the manual announcement said the fast train was going to Manchester Picadilly when the automated announcements correctly said Newport! No mention of any engineering works and people having to get road replacement transport after Newport.

[anthony215]

I have no Idea why the 17:10 swansea - cardiff train stops at Pontyclun, same with the 05:40 Cardiff - Milford Haven service which also stops there  which is stupid considering there is a cardiff - Maesteg service which leaves cardiff at 05:50. The Ebbw Vale Vale services can be done with just 2 sets, the main problems is that  they do normally get back into cardiff central from Ebbw Vale at 31/32 minutes past the hour but they cannot shunt back out of platforms 3/4 during the daytime due to heavy congestion although i seen this done on some of the ealry morning services on a saturday.

As for the Pembroke dock services the 06:42 Cardiff Central - Swansea - Pembroke Dock service can be formed of  2 class 150's,  or a 150/153 combo although a few occasions i have had 2 class 142's  i think these split at Carmarthen. Pyle can be extremely busy during the peaks especially to Cardiff, although i think it does need a service which gets into cardiff central before 07:40 as i know of one person who catches the 06:15 Milford Haven train from Pyle to Port talbot to get the 06:48 London paddington train so that he can get the 07:30 Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour  to get into Bristol before 08:45. I know the 05:04 Caramarthen - Manchester sits in Port Talbot for at least 3 minutes so i does have enough time to call at Pyle if it left Port Talbot at 06:58 rather than 06:02. Finally i think there needs to be a train  from Cardiff swansea which arrives into swansea Between 08:00 & 08:45

[Hafren]

I think the feeling is that when Maesteg goes half-hourly, either 1 per hour from Maesteg will terminate at Bridgend or Swanline will terminate at Port Talbot.
Pyle is quite a bit place, and close enough to Bridgend & Port Talbot that people would want to travel frequently, but far enough away that a train would be seen as much more attractive than a bus. So I'd say it's more than ready for an hourly service. Perhaps Llansamlet as well. The others are close to bigger stations, so don't have huge catchment areas, and have low numbers at some times of day, but can still be busy and would benefit from a decent service. Still, the service is much better than at a certain town in Wiltshire!

Running one diagram PTA^▸ (Passenger Transport Authority)-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) would be a bit tight - a minimum turnaround would be 3 minutes, but the powers that be frown upon more than a few consequetive 3 minute turnarounds. Having said that, once we factor in padding in the advertised arrival time at Swansea there probably is an average of 4-5 minutes there, but it's worth noting that a minute or two often seems to be lost (particularly on the down line) on the frequent stops around Neath. If they used 2 diagrams, they could extend to Llanelli to provide 2tph SWA-LLE - two big towns, quite close together - a proper semi-suburban service might be useful. But the extension to Llanelli would probably just recreate the tight turnarounds.
Minimum turnarounds would also be why Ebbw Vales aren't usually booked to turn in P4... which is a good reason for running them through to Maesteg or Swansea to maximise utilisation. Hourly Ebbw/Maesteg and an hourly Bridgend/Maesteg shuttle would probably be achievable without additional units, it it were considered sufficiently robust.

Most of the Manchester services have enough time for an extra stop at Pyle if a 175 is guaranteed - I don't know if they're timed for 175s or just generic timings to include Sprinters etc, but they can do PTA/BGN non-stop in about 10 minutes.

I suspect the Sunday service was cut because they were covered the first and last ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) trains only - not very useful for going shopping or whatever - so funnily enough there probably weren't too many passengers. Perhaps also to avoid having to run slow buses during Sunday possessions.

I wonder if the 17:10's extra stop was down to pressure from some group or other to provide a peak service from Swansea to Pontyclun. There might be some service requirement leading to the extra stops. I have a feeling it might be dropped in the new timetable though - might have a look later.

With only 8 153s last time I looked, I think there's an element of pot lock so 150s probably cover quite frequently if there's any drop in 153 availability. I suspect the Pacers to Pembroke might have been a summer thing to release 153s to be doubled up. During July the 06:42 CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMD was becoming a regular Pacer turn, but might have reverted since then. This would presumably split at Carmarthen to form the 9:00ish to Swansea which becomes the third Pembroke diagram.

That morning peak gap into Swansea does seem ridiculous. The morning down timetable seems to be mostly about moving stock to where it's needed. The 9am ish to Milford and the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) around that time run very close together: perhaps the Milford service should just be re-timed both to serve Swanline and arrive at Swansea earlier, and then just wait for the current departure time. Through passengers who don't want the extended wait can then use the HST and change at SWA. For 9-5 Swanline commuters, the 1710 probably isn't amazingly useful either.

[anthony215]

Another problems with the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff service is that it is very busy amd is delayed by passengers truggling to get off if it is a single 153. For the last mont or so the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke dock has either been  a class 153/150 combo or a 153/153 combo. Personally i prefered the service when it  only ran as far as carmarthen then after 10 minuters turn around at Carmarthen formed the 09:00 Carmarthen - Manchester piccadily which was usually a 3 carriage class 175 and the train was always into swansea on time unlike now when it is frequently about 4 minutes late by the time it reaches swansea.

As for Melksham maybe FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will be able to free up a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) when the receive the class 150's from London Midland although it may be difficult to path a sprinter with a top speed of 75mph on  part of a route where most trains run at at least 125mph

[Jez]

Pyle could benefit from a service getting into Cardiff earlier, as could Llansamlet, Briton Ferry etc - the first service that calls at those stations gets into Cardiff at 0818.  That Swanline service is still run by a 175 I believe (0710 from Swansea) as its an extension from the early Pembroke Dock. 

I guess the 1738 from Cardiff to Swansea could maybe depart a few mins earlier at say 34 or 35 minutes past as it would give a larger gap between the Swansea and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) high speed service plus leave a sufficient gap from the 1704.  I dont understand why the 1738 goes back to Cardiff on the fast service at 1900 whilst the service from West Wales which would normally form the fast service waits in Swansea and forms the 1910 swanline. This means we have a 150 on the fast service and a 175 on Swanline! Both diagrams end at Cardiff Central. Ive no idea why the 1900 doesnt go to Manchester (does a service from Maesteg still go there instread?). The 2000 from Swansea goes to Chester but I guess thats a means of ending the diagram in the Chester depot and it can go on a North Wales service the next day. Ive seen 175's run one of the daytime Swanline diagrams before now - think it was when there was engineering works on the Newport/Hereford line and less 175's were needed for those services.

I was thinking of padding in the timetable - I think the Swanline is scheduled to arrive into Swansea at xx20 but usually arrives a bit before that, hence sitting in Swansea for almost an hour. I wonder if it could realistically happen having services terminate in Port Talbot. There isnt much platform space if they had to wait around there.

Most of the Manchesters I guess could call at Pyle - the timetable im guessing is timed for any unit to run it and the 175's do seem to move fairly quickly when they have a significant gap between stations. There seems to be quite a bit of slack in the timetable but between Neath and PT ive noticed the Manchester services allows 7 mins whilst the FGW service around 8/9 minutes.

Yes there are still only 8 153's as far as I know. I guess currently 2 are on Pembroke Dock, 3 are on HOW/Swanline, 1 on Chester to Crewe, 1 on Conwy Valley and 1 on the Shrewsbury to Crewe stopping service. Although a 150 might run some of those services. I have seen a 153 on a Valley service a couple of times on a Saturday.

I think there are around 30 150s but they are in high demand - not sure how many are allocated to the Valley's and also the Maesteg service but we know they need 3 for Ebbw Vale (weekdays), 1 for Swanline and possibly 1 for Pembroke Dock. Also the daily Fishguard service I believe is a 150.

A few Saturdays ago they had a pacer attached to a 158 for the 16xx Cardiff-Maesteg service - they attached the pacer at Cardiff Central to make a 4 car train. Guess this was due to the extra capacity needed for a Rugby Saturday. It isnt often you see ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) 158's in the Cardiff area as Maesteg seem to be mostly 150s.

[Hafren]

Pyle could benefit from a service getting into Cardiff earlier, as could Llansamlet, Briton Ferry etc - the first service that calls at those stations gets into Cardiff at 0818.  That Swanline service is still run by a 175 I believe (0710 from Swansea) as its an extension from the early Pembroke Dock.

That's the 6ish from Carmarthen.
With the natural growth in demand, perhaps a 6.10ish Swanline would be useful. Presumably the 0550 SWA^» (Swansea - next trains)-PMD runs as ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) to SWA in the dead of night; perhaps a second unit could be attached to it to form an up service. It could be at Cardiff before some diagrams would have started so as far as unit allocation is concerned it would be running in marginal time. On the other hand, an additional crew would need to be provided, which might be seen as inefficient, given that they'd have to travel on the cushions to Swansea in the middle of the night to form a service that probably wouldn't be too busy.
Some stops would be covered by the first train from CMN, but as that takes the scenic route it wouldn't be able to serve Llansamlet etc. Using it to serve Pyle would be a start, and a fairly obvious option.

I guess the 1738 from Cardiff to Swansea could maybe depart a few mins earlier at say 34 or 35 minutes past as it would give a larger gap between the Swansea and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) high speed service plus leave a sufficient gap from the 1704.

Running from Ebbw Vale prpbably constrains it a bit. Also with a long gap after, perhaps it's just attempting to provide the latest possible departure.
The ridiculous thing is: the 1738 leaves Neath at 1827. The next HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is advertised as departing at 1830 (haven't checked advertised arrival). There is 2 aspect signalling between Neath and Landore, and on the down line this includes Neath station... so that headway is not achievable! Unless it's changed in the last few years the first signal after neath is just a repeater (i.e. yellow/green)... so even if the 1738 leaves Neath bang on at 1827, it will be some way after Neath before the HST can be signalled in. So it can't really arrive until about 1832 (therefore leaving 1833 or 34). It's possible, I suppose, that in the working timetable it does arrive at 1832, and the advertised time is just FGW trying to provide a clockface service (most of the others leave at xx:30). Perhaps in the WTT^▸ (Working Time-Table) it leaves at 1834 really; the arrival at Swansea would comfortably allow for this.
Not only that, but last time I was on the 1738, it left Bridgend bang on, and PTA^▸ (Passenger Transport Authority) marginally early... but still managed to have lost a minute by Neath (and when I checked NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service), lo and behold the HST was a few mintues late from NTH). And that's on a 150, which should have the best dwell times of the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) fleet. So the HST has no chance of arriving at Neath on time.

Just checked the December tt... still the strange arrangement in the evening, with both terminating at Cardiff. Perhaps it's just a throwback to when one of them went to Cheltenham.

There seems to be quite a bit of slack in the timetable but between Neath and PT ive noticed the Manchester services allows 7 mins whilst the FGW service around 8/9 minutes.

That's down to dwell times. The running time is about 6 minutes really but HSTs have 2 minutes and ATWs probably have 1 minute at BGN/PTA/NTH. Partly because of the slam doors and the door layout (but 175s and HSTs have the same layout really), and partly because the HSTs carry so many Bristol/London passengers as well as the local journeys - it takes forever for everyone to get on at Neath on certain morning trains. Notice how SWA-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) departures have crept back from xx:30 to xx:28 in recent years - I think this has corresponded to increasing dwells at BGN/PTA/NTH from 1.5 to 2 minutes.

[Jez]

6.10 Swanline would be a good idea. Get people into Cardiff before 7.30am. I wonder why ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) dont run direct trains from West Wales to Bristol TM^‡(resolve) anymore. The service around 0656 from Neath used to go to Bristol TM rather than Manchester Picadilly before the standard timetable change.  The service is far better now as there often used to be a gap of 2 hours between ATW services from Swansea-Cardiff. Now we have the hourly Manchester service.

I tried to check the live departure boards online for the 1827/1830 departures from Neath but last night both were delayed and i forgot tonight.

Is there a need for a half hourly service to Maesteg then? Id have thought Heart of Wales line could extend to 2 hourly and possibly more services on Pembroke Dock. Maesteg seems fine at 1 hour??

[Hafren]

Maesteg seems to be receiving a lot of investment - platform extensions and the Tondu loop - so someone must think it needs a better service. Swanline seems to be much lower priority; its impact on main line performance might be a factor.

It would be difficult to increase the Pembroke Dock service because of the single line. With this constraint, along with the Goweton single line and the desire to connect with London trains, the current service level sees 100% usage of the TEN-PMD section because trains cross at TEN and then sit for an hour at PMD. That part of the journey takes just under half an hour; factor in time for token exchange at TEN and an hourly service would require a painfully tight turnaround at PMD. So if you want a clockface service (or at least the near-clockface one as now) 2-hourly is the only realistic option; the summer Sat service essentially crams in an extra train by throwing out the clockface pattern and terminating one service at Tenby.

Beyond Tenby trains aren't particularly busy so the obvious option would be to terminate any extras there. This would still require quite tight occupation between Whitland and Tenby, which might not be sustainable all day, but perhaps an additional 2-hourly shuttle from Whitland bay platform at busier times...? It does strike me that commuting from Pembrokeshire to Carmarthen is not really possible unless one has flexible hours; I wonder how many people around there drive to work in CMN. (I suspect more work in Haverfordwest, which is more directly served by bus than training from Tenby/Pembroke.)

Heart of Wales would be difficult as well - 2-hourly interval throughout would be difficult to path so that trains cross at the loops (also bearing in mind the need to swap drivers at Llandod/Llanwrtyd) and would lead to long waits. There's a link on the HoW^‡(resolve) website to a document by some consultants suggesting various ways to implement a fifth through train. I'd have thought a better local service at the southern end might be more useful.

What might be useful is a more erratic through service averaging at 3-hourly, with additional shuttles between Llanelli and Llandeilo to provide a proper local service over the more built-up section. There are regular buses along that bit, which suggests that there are people travelling, and probably many more who would use the train but not the bus.

[Jez]

I can see how it would be difficult to increase HOW/Pembroke Dock due to timings and also availability of units to run the service.

I noticed a Pacer was on one of the Swanline's today - not the one that interacts with HOW but the other one. How often do Pacers get used on this service?

[anthony215]

I can see how it would be difficult to increase HOW/Pembroke Dock due to timings and also availability of units to run the service.

I noticed a Pacer was on one of the Swanline's today - not the one that interacts with HOW but the other one. How often do Pacers get used on this service?

It isnt really too rare to see a pacer on the swanline, normally it is a class 143 although i have had a class 142 on it a few times. a class 153 & 150 are the normla units on it though.

[Hafren]

When there was a 19.30ish CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) it was usually a Pacer.

One of the options given in the analysis of HoW^‡(resolve) improvements implies running a Pacer in marginal time. This option is to run an extra daytime service from each end, but terminating where they meet (with connections between the two). This suggests using a Pacer when it isn't needed for peak strengthening in the Valleys, and running it as far as the Carmarthen crews are able to take it.

[Jez]

Sometimes a Pacer is on the 21xx Swanline from Swansea-Cardiff which starts at Pembroke Dock, however tonight it was a 153.  I think most of the evening Swanlines are 153 as the last one comes off HOW?

Are ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) expected to get the 150s back from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) anytime soon?

[Hafren]

A 153 was on the 1605, which would end up on the 2135. As usual, a gaggle of passengers waiting around the doors, assuming it was the 1600 (which arrives on top of the 1605); the indicators don't seem to be set up for front/rear trains. ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) take note from Southern Region!
I would expect the 22.3x to be a 153, the 2135 to be whatever ends up going to Pemb roke, and the 1910 to be a 175 - so Swanline has quite a variety in the evening; incidentally, the service that forms the 1710 was a 150 today I think, which would track back to the morning service from Shrewsbury - which seems to vary a lot, depending on what Shrewsbury needs to send back to Canton.
I was on the 1555 Manchester, which happened to be something that is becoming rare, a 158. That would be the 1650 from CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains), which might be a bit busy as a 2 car at that time.

If ATW receives those 150s, there might be enough for an hourly Swansea to Ebbw Vale ;-) But there are probably some peak Valley runs that need strengthening.

[Jez]

With 4 platforms at Swansea couldnt the Pembs train depart a different platform to the 175 fast train to avoid confusion. Compaired to say Cardiff where they have 4 platforms for mainline services (not including 0 which is used for Ebbw Vale and platforms 6/7 for the Valley's and Local routes) - 4 platforms in Swansea should be plenty.

A 158 is very rare these days on the Milford-Carmarthen-Cardiff-Manchester services, except perhaps on Sundays. I wonder why the 175 which would normally form that service didnt run today? Do ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) have enough 175's to run the Manchester/Holyheads if say a couple of them were out of service? Was the service heavily used at Swansea?  Most of the Manchester thats end up as 2 car are always busy at peak time. I think a 3 car needs to be used on this service as much as it does on the Portsmouth Harbour train.