South Wales local services - Pembroke, Fishguard, Swanline, etc.

[whole diary]

[Rhydgaled]

Today I noticed the majority of ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) diagrams (that i saw) were back to normal after a very mixed few weeks.  The only sprinter i saw on Manchesters was the 1555 off Cardiff which is usually the case on a Saturday. Everything else seemed to be 175 as usual.

I assume the 15:55 off Cardiff is the one Manchester - Carmarthen/Milford service that posters above have said is diagramed for a 158 on Saturdays. If so, is that 15:55 towards Manchester or headed west? I'd like to know the times a 158 is supposed to be west of Swansea so I can try and photograph one.

[animationmilo]

@ Jez the 13:21 Cardiff-Holyhead was 158832 yesterday
@ Rhydgaled The 15:55 Cardiff is to Manchester, its the 13:08 Milford Haven to Manchester or 06:30 Manchester to Milford Haven

[anthony215]

If it is the 06:30 from Manchester to Milford Haven it should be 10:04 from Cardiff Central arriving into Carmarthen at 11:49 and Milford Haven at 12:45.

[animationmilo]

If it is the 06:30 from Manchester to Milford Haven it should be 10:04 from Cardiff Central arriving into Carmarthen at 11:49 and Milford Haven at 12:45.

Yes, correct

[phile]

ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) do seem to be really stretching the class 175 fleet lately although on a saturday I suppose they have the 175 which normally does WAG2 on weekdays

Yes plus they have 1x 158 on a Saturday as well. Not sure if the 1321 Holyhead is a 150, 158 or 175 on Saturday?

Booked 175/0 on 13 21 Saturdays (There's your WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) one on paper).    There is a 175/0 booked Maintenance at Chester on a Saturday and Sunday.   This is why  158 works 06 30 Manchester etc.,, being replaced by 150 on Chester to Crewe local shuttle.

[Jez]

Today I noticed the majority of ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) diagrams (that i saw) were back to normal after a very mixed few weeks.  The only sprinter i saw on Manchesters was the 1555 off Cardiff which is usually the case on a Saturday. Everything else seemed to be 175 as usual.

I assume the 15:55 off Cardiff is the one Manchester - Carmarthen/Milford service that posters above have said is diagramed for a 158 on Saturdays. If so, is that 15:55 towards Manchester or headed west? I'd like to know the times a 158 is supposed to be west of Swansea so I can try and photograph one.

On Saturday the service that leaves Swansea at around 11am and arrives into Milford around 12.40 is usually a 158. Then its return journey from Milford at around 1300, it departs Swansea at 1455, Cardiff at 1555 and arrives into Manchester at 1915. Then forms the 1930 from Manchester-Cardiff arriving back into Cardiff around 11pm. Assume it then stays in Cardiff and forms either a Manchester of Holyhead service on Sundays.

[phile]

Several options for Sunday if more than one 158 at Cardiff Sat night.   Could go to Manchester via west Wales.   It's working details on Saturdays have already been posted.

[Rhydgaled]

I thought Ferryside to Carmarthen was absolute block...

According to the timetable, the 10:57 Cardiff to Fishguard leaves Llanelli at 12:03 and reaches Whitland (the next place it stops at) at 12:45. That's 42 minutes, going from the return working it takes 22 minutes to go between Carmarthen and Llanelli if you don't stop, and it's about another 15 minutes from Carmarthen to Whitland (15+22=37, plus 5 minutes reversal in Carmarthen = 42). Therefore I would think that the service does in fact have enough time allowed to call at Carmarthen, rather than using the avoider line, like so:

Llanelli dep.	12:03
Carmarthen arr.	12:25
Carmarthen dep.	12:30
Whitland arr.	12:45

 

However, the previous train is:

Llanelli dep.	11:54
Pembrey & Burry Port	12:00
Kidwelly	12:06
Ferryside	12:11
Carmarthen arr.	12:26

By my guesswork, the Fishguard Flyer will reach Ferryside at 12:15, but rather than wizz through it would have to stop and wait until 12:26. That leaves it just 19 minutes to get all the way to Whitland (15 minutes from Carmarthen remember, which gives it only 4 minutes to reach Carmarthen from Ferryside) is that possible? If not, how does this service run?

[anthony215]

Another problems is that the Pembroke Dock - Swansea service departs Carmarthen at 12:30 so the Fishguard service would need to depart Carmarthen at 12:29 or after 12:30.

Ferryside - Carmarthen can been done in 8 minutes if you really push it although it is mostly 10 minutes.

That 11:54 from Llanellie can  get into Carmarthen at 12:24 as it shouldnt take 15 minutes from Ferryside to Carmarthen uunless it is held outside the station and the working from Pembroke Dock doesnt arrive until 12:27.

The Fishguard service isnt timed to arrive into Fishguard Harbour til after 13:15 however is there regulary shortly before 13:05 so there is a lot of slack which could be used and Carmarthen - Fishgaurd can easily be done in 46 minutes even with a stop @ Whitland.

Adding the extra stop at Goodwick when it opens Carmarthen - Fishagurd Hbr should take 49 minutes.

Ideally perhaps it should be looked at the Fishguard service leaving Cardiff after 11:00 so that it arrived into Llanelli say for 12:05 and makes a stop at Bridgend or Port Talbot Parkway  (Of course this is assuming atht tehre are paths available although didnt the Milford Haven/Carmarthen trains depart Cardiff at 04 minutes past?)

[Rhydgaled]

That 11:54 from Llanellie can  get into Carmarthen at 12:24 as it shouldnt take 15 minutes from Ferryside to Carmarthen

That's still later than my 12:15 estimate for the Fishguard wanting to pass Ferryside, so even the current service would appear to be impossible unless the previous train only took 4 minutes from Ferryside to Carmarthen (hence reaching Carmarthen at 12:15, allowing the Fishguard to pass Ferryside, rather than 12:26). In other words, even without calling at Carmarthen the Fishguard needs to pass Ferryside before the previous train has reached Carmarthen, how is that possible?

Ideally perhaps it should be looked at the Fishguard service leaving Cardiff after 11:00 so that it arrived into Llanelli say for 12:05 and makes a stop at Bridgend or Port Talbot Parkway  (Of course this is assuming atht tehre are paths available although didnt the Milford Haven/Carmarthen trains depart Cardiff at 04 minutes past?)

I doubt stopping at Bridgend and Port Talbot would be much of a problem if they used propper 90/100mph regional express rolling stock (ideally a 158, 175s are heavier and more expensive to run) on the service. In the timetable I'm working on the 10:57 (still with the impossible pathing from Ferryside to Whitland) looks like this:

Cardiff Central dep.	10:57
Bridgend arr.	11:16
Bridgend dep.	11:17
Port Talbot Parkway	11:28
Llanelli arr.	11:59
Llanelli dep.	12:03
-	Invalid Headway Here
Whitland	12:45
Fishguard & Goodwick	13:23
Fishguard Harbour	13:26

Following your comments, I've made the Fishguard leave Cardiff a little later (one hopes there's no frieghts in the way) and cut the journey time from Ferryside to Carmarthen on the previous service to 12 minutes (also reduced Carmarthen - Fishguard to 50 minutes). The result is:

Cardiff Central dep.	10:40		11:05
Bridgend arr.	10:59		11:24
Bridgend dep.	10:59		11:25
Port Talbot Parkway	11:12		11:36
Llanelli arr.	11:52		12:07
Llanelli dep.	11:54		12:10
Carmarthen arr.	12:23		12:34
Carmarthen dep.	-		12:36
Whitland	-		12:50
Fishguard & Goodwick	-		13:23
Fishguard Harbour	-		13:26

Would that work?

[Rhydgaled]

Further to my timetable investigations, does anyone know where I can find running times between non-calling points (in particular I'd like to know how long it takes between Cockett West Junction and Swansea station and between Duffryn West Junction and Llanelli station, but a source of running time information for everywhere like that would come in handy I'm sure).

[RichardB]

Further to my timetable investigations, does anyone know where I can find running times between non-calling points (in particular I'd like to know how long it takes between Cockett West Junction and Swansea station and between Duffryn West Junction and Llanelli station, but a source of running time information for everywhere like that would come in handy I'm sure).

This doesn't have running times but is stuffed full of other useful timetable information.  Perhaps someone with access to a working timetable can let you have those general running times.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rules%20of%20the%20route/Outrotp13/gw13p.pdf

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks very much for that, RichardB. 

[IndustryInsider]

Cockett West Junction and Swansea station - seems to be usually be 9-11 minutes.
Duffryn West Junction and Llanelli station - 3-4 minutes.

[Hafren]

I thought Ferryside to Carmarthen was absolute block...

[...]
By my guesswork, the Fishguard Flyer will reach Ferryside at 12:15, but rather than wizz through it would have to stop and wait until 12:26. That leaves it just 19 minutes to get all the way to Whitland (15 minutes from Carmarthen remember, which gives it only 4 minutes to reach Carmarthen from Ferryside) is that possible? If not, how does this service run?

That preceding train terminates at CMN so it will have some time added to the advertised arrival time; the working time may be a few minutes before 1226.
The 2004 RotP gives some revised point to point timings, suggesting Ferryside-Carmarthen is composed of:
Ferryside - Carmarthen Jn: 8 (HST^▸ (High Speed Train)) (no DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) variant given but will be no longer than this)
Carmarthen Jn - Carmarthen: 2 (HST & DMU)

The AB section ends at Carmarthen Junction. Add 2 minutes (minimum specified recovery time) and that Carmarthen train will clear the AB section at about 1221. Add some time for the signallers to do their business and the Fishguard should be able to pass Ferryside by 1223. This just about gives it enough time to reach Whitland.