Rail firms accused over missing 'first-class' seats

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From The Independent:

Britain's complex rail ticketing system excelled itself yesterday when it emerged that a train company is selling first-class tickets for trains without first-class seating.

Southeastern Railways charges ^43.20 for a first-class ticket and ^33.30 for a standard fare on the high-speed route from London to Dover Priory. Whichever fare is paid, passengers may only sit in standard accommodation because the route does not offer a premium service.

Southeastern rationalised the anomaly by explaining that the seats on the high-speed trains were more comfortable than usual standard seats ^ and added that those who bought first-class tickets had the choice of travelling on a slow service, which does have first-class seating but which takes almost an hour longer to arrive at the south coast. "A first-class ticket will provide you with a choice of using the mainline first-class or the high-speed service without the need to pay the supplement," it said.

Standard customers who buy tickets for the slow service, which takes two hours rather than little over one hour, have to pay only ^4 if they wish to switch to the high-speed service, which uses the Channel Tunnel lines between London and Ashford before shuffling along the mainline between Ashford and Dover.

Southeastern, which is owned by the Go-Ahead Group, acknowledged that standard passengers who booked the high-speed link paid less for sitting on the same standard seats as first-class passengers who, in return for paying more, usually receive more comfortable seats and complimentary tea and coffee.

The consumer group Which?, which uncovered the arrangement, responded: "So paying 30 per cent extra buys a standard-class, high-speed service ^ or a 40-minute slower first-class service."

In another case, Which? discovered that First Capital Connect charges 63 per cent more for single first-class fares between Luton Airport Parkway station and Wimbledon in south-west London. This line also has no first-class service.

The train company told Which?: "The ticket is available because you can travel first-class for parts of your journey to Wimbledon if you choose."

However this would involve getting off at St Pancras, walking to the Underground, taking a 12-minute ride to Vauxhall at a cost of ^4 and getting back on the train again.

[Mookiemoo]

Arriva do this as well. Can just about accept it on Shrewsbury/Crewe to Wrexham where you could get virgin or w&s but Ludlow to Newport? Even the wagex doesn't stop at Ludlow but there is indeed a first class fare for that route - or there was before the timetable change this month

[Timmer]

I think SE missed a trick and more revenue by not providing 1st on their HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) Javelin services.

[Brucey]

Same on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for Bristol to Portsmouth.  ^133.50 for a 1st class single (compared to ^32.50 for the cheapest standard single).  No 1st class provided on the 158s.  However you always have the option of going another route (1st class is routed NOT LONDON, as oppose to SALISBURY on the standard) or working out SWT^▸ (South West Trains)/SN connection times.

I think the moral is to always check the timetable to make sure the service you wish to use has 1st class accommodation!

[moonrakerz]

Same on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for Bristol to Portsmouth.  ^133.50 for a 1st class single (compared to ^32.50 for the cheapest standard single). 

Not quite sure how you got that fare Brucey, I have only ever seen First Class fares shown on parts of that route if you travel on the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) WAT to BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) 159s.

You can do that whole (direct) route first class: split tickets and change at Salisbury, using SWT all the way.

First class single BRI to SAL ^32.50
First class single SAL to PMS ^29.90

[JayMac]

Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 05 (yes I know, slightly out of date) shows the fare Brucey mentioned. Double checked with EastCoast and it gives the option to travel on any direct train from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to PMS/PMH with that 1st class fare. If you force EastCoast booking engine to show slower routes it throws up the odd service with a change at Havant onto a SWT^▸ (South West Trains) service. It also offers the 1541, changing at Bristol Parkway, Reading and Basingstoke!!! But even that option is Standard Class only to BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains)! Then there's the 2150 which suggests changing at Reading and Guildford......

The trainline throws up the direct Standard only options as well as changing at Bath Spa from a 1st Class conveying HST^▸ (High Speed Train) onto the following Pompey service. It even gives this option with the SWT Bristol to Waterloo 1310 service, when it would be more sensible to stay on the SWT service and change at Salisbury and Southampton onto other 1st class conveying services.

Still you're right about the split, moonrakerz. But Pay ^133.50 and it appears you can go a very long way round if you so desire - Routeing Guide agrees. Same applies to the BRI-PMS/PMH Anytime and Off Peak fares routed 'NOT LONDON'.

[super tm]

From The Independent:

In another case, Which? discovered that First Capital Connect charges 63 per cent more for single first-class fares between Luton Airport Parkway station and Wimbledon in south-west London. This line also has no first-class service.

The train company told Which?: "The ticket is available because you can travel first-class for parts of your journey to Wimbledon if you choose."

However this would involve getting off at St Pancras, walking to the Underground, taking a 12-minute ride to Vauxhall at a cost of ^4 and getting back on the train again.

Just checked the fares manual and this ticket is routed any permitted with the maltese cross symbol.  So you could if you wanted take east midlands train to St Pancras which does have first class and then the underground all included in the price.  So Which has got that wrong and you dont need to purchase a further ticket. 

What you have to remember is that tickets have to be available to cover all circumstances.  It may be only one time in 1000000 that someone wants to go first class from Luton to St Pancras.
If that option was not available Which would be putting out a press release along the lines of Businessman refused first class ticket !

Which are just getting themselves some free publicity.

[Btline]

Why has the press published this as if this a new and shocking thing?

Many phantom 1st fares have existed for years on many routes! And at least in the e.g. they give in the article, a 1st route is ACTUALLY available!

[inspector_blakey]

What you have to remember is that tickets have to be available to cover all circumstances.  It may be only one time in 1000000 that someone wants to go first class from Luton to St Pancras.

I understand what you're saying completely, the problem is that there doesn't seem to be much consistency. Just to pull an example out of the hat from a bit of local knowledge, there are no first-class fares between Swansea and points west of Carmarthen. Now, given that HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to Pembroke Dock only run on summer Saturdays, anyone who wanted to travel first class on those trains could be charged a weekend first supplement. However, all year there's at least one HST each weekday in both directions between SWA^» (Swansea - next trains) and CMN so the bulk of a journey to, say, Whitland could be made in first class and yet no fare is available!

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10170185.stm

[paul7575]

They also seem to be talking out their hats about having to pay extra to use the underground. The any permitted fare will allow cross London transfer.  Not everyone is daft enough to do the whole journey on the stopping FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) anyway - two separate FCC services Luton > Blackfriars > Wimbledon would be a perfectly viable route, and to cap it all the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) online planner for a random date next week, mid day, produces 5 routes none of which use the direct stopping service. 

I'm sure there are examples all over the country where the planners would come up with similar.

Taken to extremes you should cancel every First class day travelcard fare and equivalent seasons, because the LU legs don't have first.

Paul

[Glovidge]

Why has the press published this as if this a new and shocking thing?

Cos Which magazine have covered it.

I wasn't aware of these phantom 1st class fares until I heard the news on the radio. Its disgraceful and amounts to fraudulent practice imho. And train companies complain about fare dodgers when some of them undertake dubious procedures like this?

[paul7575]

I wasn't aware of these phantom 1st class fares until I heard the news on the radio. Its disgraceful and amounts to fraudulent practice imho. And train companies complain about fare dodgers when some of them undertake dubious procedures like this?

But they aren't 'phantom fares' as you put it - try reading through some of the comments above.

If you put Luton - Wimbledon into the Network Rail jouney planner you'll see that the recommended train is EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) to St Pancras, then underground, then SWT^▸ (South West Trains).  Luton - St Pancras is still the majority of the journey, as Wimbledon is well inside the London zones.  If you take Which's logic to the extreme, every First Class fare, season and travelcard which includes onward travel to inner London destinations should be abolished because LU do not offer first class...

Paul

[Btline]

Exactly, the whole point is that that these fares have existed for ages, but when the press actually see this, they use a cr*p example!!!

[Mookiemoo]

You can buy a newportbro Ludlow fc fair - or at least you used to - o haven't checked recently