New London 'Routemaster' bus (merged topics)

[whole diary]

[readytostart]

So is the idea that they easily carry enough fuel for a known number of days' duty and are topped up on a regular schedule? Or does a mechanic go throuhg the depot every night with a dipstick?!

Seriously, given that the cost of a modern bus can be easily in the hundreds of thousands of pounds (and I would guess is much higher for Boris's vanity project given all its peculiarities), the relative cost saving of omitting a fuel gauge must be fairly inconsequential.

I'm guessing the routine is similar to most bus and train depots, in that they are diagrammed in a specific points to be washed / fuelled / cleaned and then sent out again.

[Tim]

...I would have thought that they would have some kind of low fuel warning given that Deisel engines need repriming after running out of fuel.  

[Tim]

Do trains have fuel gauges?

[inspector_blakey]

Yes, although (at least on older stock, less sure about newer ones) they are often not in the driver's cab but on the exterior of the loco/unit - usually a gauge indicating roughly how many gallons remaining but occasionally just a sight glass.

[broadgage]

I suspect that the bus did not in fact run out of fuel (unless you count electricity as fuel)
Detailed study of the various reports suggest that the traction battery became discharged as a result of a prolonged journey at motorway speeds.

These vehicles use a relatively small diesel engine and a battery.
The engine has insufficient horsepower to move the vehicle at motorway speeds, but requires battery assistance in such circumstances.
This works fine provided that prolonged high speeds are not required.

In revenue earning service in a built up area average speeds are very low, with frequent stops during which surplus engine power recharges the battery.
The smaller engine runs for much of the time at optimum power and thus saves a great deal of increasingly expensive diesel fuel.
Such vehicles would not be suited for express coaches but are suitable for urban buses.

In the case of "one of" long journies such as delivering the vehicle, then special arrangements should be made, such as limiting the speed and/or leaving the engine running to charge the battery whilst the driver stops for a break.

[onthecushions]

Anyone know if car hybrids like the Prius do this?

I understood that hybrids have a "small engine policy" that, road-wise, means you have a lower continuous maximum engine rating and hence lower top speed especially climbing long hills.


?

OTC

[broadgage]

Yes, hybrid cars do have smaller engines and therefore reduced performance on LONG hills. A short hill is ascended at a good speed by use of the battery and the engine, but on a long hill the battery will become depleted and the performance limited to what the engine alone can achieve.

The engine is typicly sized to be just sufficient to maintain 70 MPH on a level road.
Acceleration up to 70 uses the battery to give a reasonable rate of acceleration.

At least one hybrid car has a feature called "mountain mode", this being a control operated by the driver well before ascending mountains or large hills. Operation of this control causes the battery to be 100% charged in order that the maximum possible energy is available for the ascent.
In normal conditions, the automatic controls "try" to keep the battery about 70 or 80% full, it should not be fully charged under normal driving conditions since a full battery could not absorb the energy generated under regenerative braking.

If mountain mode is selected, and the battery thereby fully charged, then regenerative braking is not available, and any braking is by friction brakes alone with consequent waste of energy that otherwise could have added to the battery charge.

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, although (at least on older stock, less sure about newer ones) they are often not in the driver's cab but on the exterior of the loco/unit - usually a gauge indicating roughly how many gallons remaining but occasionally just a sight glass.

And more modern stock, Class 180's for example, have a warning system to advise when there is a danger of running out through the Train Management System.

[Not from Brighton]

Thanks for fascinating insight into hybrid vehicles!

[SapperPsmith]

How can anyone prefer the bendy bus vs the 'new routemaster'?  The former caught fire and many didnt pay - the latter will be better value (as long as TfL^» (Transport for London - about) buy plenty)

[mjones]

Er, the bendy bus offered quicker boarding times, so reduced dwell time and better timekeeping. Carried more passengers per bus, so fewer drivers and buses needed for given flow. And the fare evasion complaint is rather disingenuously presented: the argument was that the bendy bus had lots of entrances so would have needed additional staff to check tickets. Whereas the borismaster has the rear platform for which a conductor is needed...

[JayMac]

How can anyone prefer the bendy bus vs the 'new routemaster'? 

I do. I use them on the A4 Portway Park & Ride service in Bristol. They're providing sterling service. Comfortable, reliable and an improvement on what went before.

The former caught fire and many didnt pay - the latter will be better value (as long as TfL^» (Transport for London - about) buy plenty)

The fires were not because the buses were bendy. If was a fault in the design of the Mercedes Benz/Evobus Citaro. Non articulated Citaros also suffered fires. The problem lay in pipework in the engines. Engines which are used in many types of bus not just articulated Citaros. The incidences of fires on articulated buses were statistically no different to any other type of bus. However, the media would have you believe otherwise.

Can you provide some statistics to back up your statement that the bendy buses "didn't pay"?

The new Routemasters will be better value? How so and by what measurement? Carrying capacity alone for the new Routemaster is just 60% of that for the articulated Citaro.

Boris's New Routemaster development costs were ^11.4 million for the prototype and eight pre-production models. That's ^1.3 million per bus. Each subsequent bus will cost around ^315,000. London TravelWatch estimated the withdrawal of articulated buses by Boris is costing Transport for London ^12-^13 million per annum on just three routes due to the need to use more vehicles to provide the same level of service. An over-estimate as it turns out, but some number crunching done by BorisWatch reveals the annual cost of replacing the articulated buses is around ^3.5 million for those three routes.

Compare that with the articulated Mercedes Benz Citaro introduced by Ken. Zero development costs as the product was off the shelf. With a unit cost of around ^250,000.

Now. Who's the most profligate mayor?

[broadgage]

The bendy buses, like new suburban trains, were optimised for standing and had only limited seating.
The new routemasters have a lot of seats upstairs.

Had the comparison between bendy buses and new routmasters been on seating capacity, rather than crush loaded standing capacity, then the routemasters look a lot more favourable.

If mass produced they should be a lot cheaper, the present very high price includes a lot of developments costs.

And as for the argument that London should not have a bespoke bus, it may be noted that over half the bus journies in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) begin or end in London.

It could therefore be argued that these new routemasters will be a new standardised design and that the REST of the country insists on something special and non standard.

[Southern Stag]

But of course in most places in the country three sets of doors, two staircases and two members of staff would be a complete overkill, and the space is much better used for seats.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Wrightbus set to supply 600 London buses


Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, pictured on a life-size model of the new London bus in 2010

The County Antrim company, Wrightbus, is on the verge of signing a multi-million pound contract to build 600 buses for London commuters.

Transport for London (TfL^» (Transport for London - about)), which manages the city's public transport network, agreed the finance for the order at a board meeting on Thursday.

Wrightbus, which is based in Ballymena, was originally awarded a contract in 2010 to design a new bus for London. Eight of its prototype buses are already being used in the city.

It was the first time in 50 years that a new bus had been designed for London commuters.

Wrightbus is the only firm which builds the hybrid double-decker which features the old-style hop on, hop-off platform favoured by the London Mayor, Boris Johnston. He visited Ballymena last year to drive the first prototype off the production line. At the time he described it as a "world-class piece of technology" and "the cleanest, greenest bus" in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

In a statement on Thursday, Transport for London said it will be "the largest order of hybrid buses ever placed in Europe and will deliver significant environmental benefits".

"The decision takes forward Mayor Boris Johnson's election pledge to introduce 600 of the new Routemaster-inspired vehicles that resurrect the iconic hop-on hop-off rear platform by 2016. The new bus for London incorporates the most innovative and cutting edge hybrid technology and is the most environmentally-friendly bus of its kind, benefiting air quality and reducing carbon emissions," the statement added.

Stormont Enterprise minister Arlene Foster said she was confident Wrightbus would secure the order. "The Wright Group's continuing success in winning major contracts reflects the company's focus on innovation and export marketing which has resulted in it becoming a significant player across a range of international markets," she added.

The MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) for North Antrim, Ian Paisley, said the proposed deal was a "very significant boost" for the Northern Ireland economy. "The ability of Wrightbus to secure these kind of orders comes the company's innovation and commitment to quality.

"It is this kind of high quality and high value engineering which can ensure that Northern Ireland companies can compete with, and beat the best in the world to secure contracts," Mr Paisley added.

Wrightbus was founded in Ballymena in 1946 and describes itself as "one of the Europe's leading suppliers of accessible public transport vehicles".

Last month, the company won a three-year contract worth ^41m to supply 550 double-decker buses to Singapore.

On Thursday, Wrightbus said they would not be making any comment at this stage.