Is this valid?

[whole diary]

[Zoe]

A Super Off Peak Return from Newton Abbot to London costs ^68.70.  Due to to the changes last year this is no longer valid on the 09:35.  However I note that it is valid on the same train from Exeter.  Would a combination of an Off Peak Day Return to Exeter and then a Super Off Peak return from Exeter to London be valid?  I can't see any reason why not but I know a few years ago someone used split tickets to get around peak restrictions and it ended up going to court and Thames Trains won the case against them.

[inspector_blakey]

Sounds entirely legitimate.

Think you're getting a bit confused about the Thames Trains court case - the issue at stake there was the refusal of TT staff at Paddington to sell the customer the tickets they wanted, the case did not revolve around the validity or otherwise of splitting to avoid peak restrictions. Your right to do this is clearly stated in the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) anyway.

Edited to add...
In fact we covered this issue some time ago here.

[Zoe]

Think you're getting a bit confused about the Thames Trains court case - the issue at stake there was the refusal of TT staff at Paddington to sell the customer the tickets they wanted

So in theory Newton Abbot ticket office could refuse to sell me that combination then?

[inspector_blakey]

Doubt it - that court case ended up being a mess, which may or may not have been successfully appealed but in any case hasn't set any kind of precedent for split ticketing. It's had absolutely no appreciable impact since then. Forget about it and stop worrying!

[Zoe]

Doubt it - that court case ended up being a mess, which may or may not have been successfully appealed but in any case hasn't set any kind of precedent for split ticketing. It's had absolutely no appreciable impact since then. Forget about it and stop worrying!

I expect you are right, it's just once the staff at Taunton tried to refuse to sell me a combination and they cited that court case as the reason.

[inspector_blakey]

From the Conditions of Carriage, an excerpt of Condition 19:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

So:
(a) what you want to do is completely legit
(b) if some member of staff thinks they know better based on a misunderstanding of the TT court case, tell them to read Condition 19. If that doesn't work and you really can't get the tickets you want then you have a completely solid case to complain to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) under the Conditions of Carriage. The court case is not relevant.

[grahame]

Backing up Inspector Blakey.

If you purchase a Newton Abbot to Exeter return ticket and use it within its terms and conditions for those journeys, and you purchase an Exeter to London ticket and use it within the terms and conditions for that journey, you are perfectly within your rights.  And the staff have to sell you tickets for anywhere across the network, and not just from their station.   I have bought Melksham to Swindons at Temple Meads, Westbury to Melkshams at Chippenham.  I have been lied to about what is allowed at station name deleted, but stood my ground and was sold the tickets by a sulky individual who couldn't tell me which rule my request for split tickets broke.

What you cannot do (except in some circumstances) is use a split ticket on a train that doesn't stop at the splitting station - and if the splitting station is a request stop, that means you have to get the train to make a potentially needless stop.

I remain unclear as to what you should do if you're starting at a station which only has a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), as it won't sell you the second half of the split;  I think that previous advise was to buy the first half and approach the conductor on the train as early as you can to ask him to sell you the second half.  But you may need to be more robust in such a circumstance.

[JayMac]

I have made countless purchases and journeys involving split tickets and have only be challenged as to their validity on two occasions.

Once was attempting to purchase at Birmingham New Street, I was told I could not split a fare at Derby, a colleague soon corrected the member of staff dealing with my request.

The other was a guard/train manager/conductor* on CrossCountry on a trip from Brum to Leicester. I'd done a peak/off peak restriction split at Coleshill Parkway. This guard was adamant that I couldn't do this - even after I showed him the relavent part of NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage). He tried to claim that splitting didn't apply when the tickets covered a journey in peak then off peak! He was insistetent that if I didn't pay what he deemed to be the correct fare (an Anytime single BHM-LEI) and I stayed on the train, he would call the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police). I suggested that first he call his Control to check up on split tickets. He never came back to me. Approaching Leicester I sought him out and asked what he'd been told. He said his supervisors had said he was right (blatant lie) and he'd called BTP, but they were too busy to meet me at Leicester. I said that as the report was logged I'd happily hand myself in to the BTP, so asked him for a reference number. Obviously he couldn't supply one as he was lying, so I asked him to issue me with a UFN^‡(resolve) if he and his supervisors were adamant they were right. Now, he changed tack and said if I carried on being threatening and agressive he'd call BTP again!

Needless to say, I complained to CrossCountry and got an apology and rail vouchers to the tune of ^30.

*delete as appropriate

[Phil]

Great story and well handled, bignosemac. I applaud you in every respect.

One thing that jumped out at me - according to this forum's acronyms and abbreviations list, a "UFN^‡(resolve)' stands for "Until Further Notice", and I'm not sure how that would apply in the situation you describe. Can a guard/train manager/conductor actually issue a document called an "Until Further Notice"?

Signed, Easily Confused of Melksham

[inspector_blakey]

No... But they can issue an Unpaid Fare Notice

[JayMac]

My apologies for the abbreviation, Phil. Often forget that they can cause confusion. 

I was of course referring to the United Florist Network*   

*Joke. blakey was indeed right.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm. 

You three have stretched me a bit on this, just remembering how to do it - but I've now amended our Acronyms/Abbreviations page to include this one. 

C. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Getting back on topic ... 

Zo^ - the message is clear: just be polite, but firm, in asking for your selected tickets for this trip.  It's perfectly legitimate.

(And please let us know how your trip went, in due course!)

Chris. 

[LiskeardRich]

i once went into a "unnamed" ticket office to buy an advance ticket from Truro-gatwick airport, and the ticket sales guy suggested split tickets, i havent named the ticket office in case of potential repercussions if he wasnt supposed to recommend me such a ticket
the Truro-Gatwick ticket advance off peak return was well over ^200
yet a Truro-Redhill was around ^40, followed by a cheap single from Redhill-Gatwick was only a few quid. i have never understood how they worked out these prices.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks for your information, richwarwicker - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum! 

When I got the train from Nailsea & Backwell to Swindon to attend the Go! coop launch meeting a couple of weeks ago, I bought my ticket on the train. The FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Customer Service chap looked up the return ticket (costing about ^40) and then suggested splitting the ticket at Bath Spa: total cost about ^20. I was very impressed with his 'customer service', too!