Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

I'll try and find out from a good source about contingency plans.

There used to be phrase used when siganlling train past a signal at danger which went something like "proceed with caution be prepared to stop short of any obstruction". Basically driving on line of site. Unless the traction curent is off then if just the siganlling that's down surely the first train can be cautioned out of the effected area and subsequent trains cleared  when train in front moves all under caution. In four aspect areas you can often the train at the next siganl it would surely be possible to train drivers to move to next siganl say 5 minutes after the train in front moves.

Agree entirely. Passing signals at danger is not to be undertaken lightly, but permission should be granted in extreme cases in order to allow passengers to alight from overcrowded services.
It would appear that in the recent incident, few if any, trains were allowed to do this.

This does not help in the case of electric trains if the traction current is off, but in this incident it was still on, at least initialy.

[Electric train]

With all the gee-whiz signalling installed these days, do we have a lack of Mk1 humans who were capable of handsignalling or clipping points?

The straight answer is YES there is a lack of Mk1 humans to do this level of on the ground control.  McNulty recommends the railway industry go even further to reduce the level of staffing.

It's possible for Air Traffic Controllers to control aircraft over the phone when the link to the radar goes down. One operator dashes off to the radar cabin and describes the content of the radar screen over the phone to the Air Traffic Controller. The controller then directs the aircraft using voice instructions over the radio.
Is it not possible to deploy a collection of signallers armed with radios/mobile phones and some flags and do something similar. If it's good enough for air traffic, why not trains?
Surely it would be easier for the industry to rapidly drum up enough staff to operate a more manual signalling system than it would be to start evacuating trains?

Signalers can instruct drivers to pass a signal at Danger over CSR^▸ (Cab Secure Radio) or SPT^▸ (Signal Post Telephone) the problem with the lines out of Waterloo some of the busiest railway lines in the World is the number of trains involved, also if there was a major Traction Power supply failure there is no 750v dc on the con rail to move the trains with.

The railway system did what it was supposed to do it failed safe and yes people were inconvenienced, distressed etc but no one was serious injured or killed, do the railway need to do better in such incident yes it does was the Police handling OTT^▸ (Open Train Times website) possibly yes how to deal with such an incident in the future is more, if not impossible, to answer

[ChrisB]

Unfortunately, the public's patience with these elongated delays is starting to tire, witness this episode & the Kentish Town episode a week or so ago.

Doing nothing will not be an option for much longer. Every time the media report passengers abandoning trains happens, more people will think that is a way to go if / when they get caught up. And next time, they won't waot two hours either.

So planning needs starting now - the price of copper isn't going to come diwn much anytime soon. Instead of evacuation 'hit squads' I suggested earlier, squads of hand-signallers might be a better bet. It seems that signals fail more often than power (which was Kentish Town?) - and of course, vast tracks of rail aren't electrified anyway, so these squads would likely be more use everywhere.

I'm sure they could be multi-skilled too, so available for other technical jobs while awaiting call-outs.

[JayMac]

Kentish Town was an electrical fault on a train that tripped out the OHLE causing many trains in the area to grind to a halt.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/110526_St_Pancras_International.cfm

[Electric train]

Kentish Town was an electrical fault on a train that tripped out the OHLE causing many trains in the area to grind to a halt.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/110526_St_Pancras_International.cfm

The route Kentish Town is on is part of the Thameslink which is undergoing major power supply upgrading compounded by the failure of a UKPNS (electricity supply company) 132/25kV transformer at Boreham Wood, it will be interesting to see if the way and the tight deadlines the Thameslink Program are having to work to is in part the cause of this failure.

Unfortunately, the public's patience with these elongated delays is starting to tire, witness this episode & the Kentish Town episode a week or so ago.

Doing nothing will not be an option for much longer. Every time the media report passengers abandoning trains happens, more people will think that is a way to go if / when they get caught up. And next time, they won't waot two hours either.

So planning needs starting now - the price of copper isn't going to come diwn much anytime soon. Instead of evacuation 'hit squads' I suggested earlier, squads of hand-signallers might be a better bet. It seems that signals fail more often than power (which was Kentish Town?) - and of course, vast tracks of rail aren't electrified anyway, so these squads would likely be more use everywhere.

I'm sure they could be multi-skilled too, so available for other technical jobs while awaiting call-outs.

Who is going to pay? add 5% onto the fairs to cover the cost of these staff.   I such a person you are alluding too, I would need to have competencies the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) require to be current and in date at all times, these are kept in date by either using the skills and be assessed in the field or to attend retraining, I have had to let most of my competences (authority to switch HV, COSS, etc) lapse because my current day job does not permit the time to use them to the levels required, if I were given the time the projects I deliver would go up in cost which is funded by the tax payer, this would apply to many others and just not me.

How would these staff get to the affected areas

There is no simple solution and I and sure NR^» (Network Rail - home page) the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s and the ORR will be reviewing what has happened and do a lessons learned.

[ChrisB]

No, there is no simple solution, agreed.

But so far, no review has in my view gone far enough, and they need to start looking well outside traditional boxes, otherwise more & more passengers will evacuate themselves, until there's a disasterous accident.

There is more solutions than I suggest of course - but the hand-signallers hit-squads would be funded the same way as the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police), I suggest, and included in future franchises

[dviner]

There is more solutions than I suggest of course - but the hand-signallers hit-squads would be funded the same way as the BTP^▸ (British Transport Police), I suggest, and included in future franchises

Hand-signaller Hit-squads would have to come under Network Rail's control, as they are the people who do the normal signalling.

It should also be remembered that it may not be just signals stuck on red/showing no lights, but also not being able to confirm how the points are set - so we'll also need people to hand wind and scotch & clamp the points, and the overhead on the controlling signaller to get these people to do their tasks and confirm that they are out of harms way.

Simple solutions can very rapidly become non-simple when railways are involved!

[smokey]

If Network Rail had a suggestion Scheme open to all, I'd put in an Idea that could catch some cable thieves before they could even unload their haul.

But I've already Posted something to that Effect & NO BODY seemed Interested.

[ChrisB]

I never said any solution had to be simple.....

But the funding can go from the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to NR^» (Network Rail - home page) easily enough. I believe they already pay NR for other things.....

If Network Rail had a suggestion Scheme open to all, I'd put in an Idea that could catch some cable thieves before they could even unload their haul.

But I've already Posted something to that Effect & NO BODY seemed Interested.

where? In this thread?

And, as with Kentish Town, it's not al;ways thieves causing the problem anyway...

[Electric train]

If Network Rail had a suggestion Scheme open to all, I'd put in an Idea that could catch some cable thieves before they could even unload their haul.

But I've already Posted something to that Effect & NO BODY seemed Interested.

Simple really if the idea is that good write to the Chairman and CEO^▸ (Chief Executive Officer) of Network Rail ......... address is in the phone book

[paul7575]

It should also be remembered that it may not be just signals stuck on red/showing no lights, but also not being able to confirm how the points are set - so we'll also need people to hand wind and scotch & clamp the points, and the overhead on the controlling signaller to get these people to do their tasks and confirm that they are out of harms way.

The signalling on the East London Line, and currently being installed in the Thameslink core (Blackfriars to St Pancras inclusive) includes the new feature of Proceed on Sight Authorisation (POSA) aspects.  This uses a pair of flashing whites below the main signal (same hardware as calling on lights) to allow drivers to proceed when there are problems with train detection only - but not when there are problems with points detection. 

As you rightly imply - lack of knowledge about points and route setting appears to be a completely different kettle of fish to loss of train detection.

Paul

[Electric train]

Loss of train detection can be dealt with by a signaler issuing a proceed with caution because the worse case is a train will approach another from the rear, loss of point detection could result in a head on collision.

Above all there are some basic and fundamental Regulations that have been in existence since the early days of the railways come into play regarding train movements to protect LIFE the delays last week inconvenient yes but everyone walked away unhurt

[MrC]

The signalling on the East London Line, and currently being installed in the Thameslink core (Blackfriars to St Pancras inclusive) includes the new feature of Proceed on Sight Authorisation (POSA) aspects.  This uses a pair of flashing whites below the main signal (same hardware as calling on lights) to allow drivers to proceed when there are problems with train detection only - but not when there are problems with points detection. 

TBH^▸ (to be honest) I can't see that POSA aspects would have helped in the recent problems. If someone damages signalling and/or power cables you lose control of the POSA aspects as well.

[ChrisB]

Maybe those regulations need looking at?

Otherwise you'll get people frying themselves.....

[broadgage]

Loss of train detection can be dealt with by a signaler issuing a proceed with caution because the worse case is a train will approach another from the rear, loss of point detection could result in a head on collision.

Above all there are some basic and fundamental Regulations that have been in existence since the early days of the railways come into play regarding train movements to protect LIFE the delays last week inconvenient yes but everyone walked away unhurt

Had this occurred in warmer weather I would consider loss of life from heat stress or heart failure to be likely for an unfortunate minority.
Although prolonged delays have occured in the past, the situation is far worse with modern trains. On older trains almost everyone got a seat, the windows opened, and it was not unknown for the doors to be opened also in case of prolonged delay in hot weather.

To be stuck for 4 hours seated on an old train was only inconvienient. Smokers could smoke, windows could be opened, toilets were provided and still worked, battery lighting was provided and worked for several hours

To be stuck for 4 hours standing on a modern crush loaded train, in the dark, in sweltering heat is potentialy dangerous.
The battery lighting seldom works, the toilets dont work, windows cant be opened, and of course new trains on suburban route are optimised for standing.
Railway police and some railway staff are there not to help but threaten arrest of anyone breaking windows, opening doors, smoking or trying to escape.
I recently met someone caught up in the recent chaos. They spoke very badly indeed of the police at Woking, they said that many police were present with the intention of arresting any escapees for trespass.
It was said that the only way the escapees avoided arrest was by outnumbering the police and charging the police line en-masse in order to escape.