Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere

[whole diary]

[inspector_blakey]

Another story that demonstrates a trained second person (a conductor/guard or otherwise) should be present on board trains, even if they only reassure passengers that remaining on the train is the best option.

All SWT^▸ (South West Trains) services are driver/guard operated, so I'm afraid that point isn't valid here. It may be that the comment about the "train driver" making announcements was borne out of ignorance on the part of the member of the public, because I'd guess it was probably the guard.

Realistically there's only so much one member of staff can do - if a train full of cretinous passengers decide they want to operate the emergency door releases and go wandering over the third rail around Clapham Junction there's not much that a single guard can do to prevent that physically happening.

I think we're up to three similar incidents in the last couple of weeks now, aren't we? That includes one where a woman got herself seriously burned by the juice rail. I'd be rather concerned that these incidents, and the media coverage of them, are in danger of setting a worrying precedent.

Edited to add...

There's a hair-raising video on youtube somewhere (I can't find it right now, but others may well know what I'm talking about) which shows an incident which I think was in France. A suburban train came to a halt for some reason, and after a few minutes the passengers apparently decided en masse to operate door releases and start wandering all over the track. The video shows a TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) or other high-speed service scything through the crowd on the adjacent line. By a miracle nobody was killed or injured but it's only a matter of time before someone is if this trend continues.

[ChrisB]

But those reviewing/planning need to realise that these events are happening more frequently, and like it or not, every time this happens, draws closer the time when the travelling public will take it into their own to alight from their stuck trains. This is evidenced by recent events....

So, the powers that be need to start planning for these consequences. Like TOCS having an evacuation team available to reach any part of their network within, say, 90 minutes. That may need more than one team then. Because it won't be long before joe public say they've had enough after 2 hours and alight.

The point some are making about this event making the case for a guard, etc is not made. This train had a guard, who was reportedly making very regular announcements. He failed to prevent these people getting off. He then reportedly bolted those doors shut, which, if he'd done many more, would likely have started a riot/violence/upset. And probably broke H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) rules? Otherwise, why allow doors to be opened in an emergency?

Unless things are changed, people will start alighting, mark my words....

[inspector_blakey]

Unless things are changed, people will start alighting, mark my words....

Erm, they already have...

[ChrisB]

5 hours on train is unacceptable, regardless of event; if after 2 hours-ish, no repair or resumption is likely, evacuations need to be put in hand. If there's no power either, then, as modern trains have sealed windows/doors, a way of providing fresh air is also needed - maybe controlled removal of window(s) - two per coach. Yes, all this will cost money. The industry needs to get a grip and start by securing line-side cabinets. Last night one was broken into. If they hadn't been able to gain access....

[MrC]

Like TOCS having an evacuation team available to reach any part of their network within, say, 90 minutes. That may need more than one team then. Because it won't be long before joe public say they've had enough after 2 hours and alight.

Probably a good idea but how many people would you need to evacuate say 50 trains over an area from Clapham Jcn to Basingstoke? And how long will it take? All the while trying to fire-fight operational problems elsewhere. That's the scale of yesterday's incident. Also while you're evacuating you're probably not going to be fixing the root cause because you've got people wandering all over the railway, so you're in danger of the problem running over into the following peak period.

And how many people will get injured during the evac, especially if it's at night, or icy, or wet, etc.

There's really no easy answer to this. As you say these sorts of problems are going to get worse as the railway wasn't designed to prevent this sort of opportunistic theft/vandalism. And if, as it looks likely, organised crime starts getting involved then we can look forward to this happening on a regular basis. The only real 'cure' is to make metal theft non-profitable but that's not going to be easy.

[bobm]

So, the powers that be need to start planning for these consequences. Like TOCS having an evacuation team available to reach any part of their network within, say, 90 minutes. That may need more than one team then. Because it won't be long before joe public say they've had enough after 2 hours and alight.

Good idea - but it needn't be TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) specific. Base them at strategic geographic points and the nearest one to an incident goes regardless of which company it is.  Could be a department of BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) for example. Or set up along the lines of the Highways Agency who have flying squads to assist with Motorway incidents.

[Brucey]

This story was covered on Meridian Tonight as a main story.  I was disappointed to see no mention of the safety implication of alighting a train.

[Electric train]

There's really no easy answer to this. As you say these sorts of problems are going to get worse as the railway wasn't designed to prevent this sort of opportunistic theft/vandalism. And if, as it looks likely, organised crime starts getting involved then we can look forward to this happening on a regular basis. The only real 'cure' is to make metal theft non-profitable but that's not going to be easy.

It is not a case of getting worse there has been a war of attrition between Network Rail Electrification Engineers and BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) against these thieves for at least 2 years, the level of theft subsided about a year ago for a few months because the price of copper dropped. 

The thieves are getting more and more stupid actually cutting live 33,000 volt cable, I do not know the details of what was attacked yesterday it must have been a major item attacked or an item with something else that had already failed, normally the system can deal with one failure.

The idea of having a team of "storm troopers" ready to deploy in these events is great except the fair paying passenger would not welcome the cost of having them sitting around 99.9% of the time.   What needs to be done is to improve the communications systems to trains perhaps having a broadcast system that can be sent out from a control centre direct to the train and station PA^▸ (Public Address) systems thereby not relying on the train crew or station staff to pass on the information.

[Lee]

From Yahoo:

South West Trains chaos: a passenger's story

Passengers were last night trapped on a train outside Woking station for four and a half hours. One commuter tells us what happened when things went wrong...

By Lucy Maxwell

Normally my train journey home takes 25 minutes and comes with the usual commuting etiquette ^ avoid talking or making eye contact with people, tut when someone's arm digs into your ribs, sigh when that loud City man yells into his phone etc. But last night's four-and-a-half-hour delay on South West Trains showed a different side of the daily grind.
 
The conditions weren't great for much of the time: no power (we'll come to the reason for that later) meant no air conditioning; some toilets wouldn't open and the state of the ones that did was just revolting; no water or refreshments were on offer; it was hot, uncomfortable and just plain boring ^ there are only so many times you can read the Evening Standard cover to cover before you want to rip the thing to shreds.
 
But despite all the inconvenience, lots of people made the best of a bad situation.
 
Many travellers were on their way down to Portsmouth to head over to the Isle of Wight Festival. Suitably equipped with a vast alcohol supply and speakers, one carriage on our train became a big party, with people literally dancing and singing in the aisle. The festival-goers were generous with their supplies too, readily handing around drinks to the regular commuters. They knew they weren't going to make their ferry, so decided to start their festival anyway.

In my slightly less active carriage, people were striking up conversations with each other, sharing whatever drinks and food they had with everyone and generally being very patient with the unfolding situation.
 
Of course it wasn't all a big tea party ^ at one point the guard put out a call for any medical professionals on board to attend to a woman (she was a diabetic who didn't have insulin with her). The intensive care nurse sitting opposite me leapt into action and when she came back, got a round of applause. Turns out she wasn't needed as there were already three doctors on the scene. And when the guard asked if any of us had sweet food or drinks to give to the woman, a long stream of volunteers passed through.
 
The worst part was when some passengers decided to make a break for it, getting off the train and trying to walk along to the nearest station, meaning the electricity supply to the tracks and train had to be turned off (hence no air con and limited lighting). This resulted in an even longer delay to the trains, as we had to wait till the people had been removed from the tracks before they could put the power back on.
 
Once wouldn't have been so bad, but when it happened a second time, you could sense the frustration mounting. If the escapees had stayed on the train, we all would have got home sooner.
 
But everyone kept calm and carried on, having conversations with people they would barely even nod to on a regular commuting day. Let's face it, we're not talking about some great trauma here, it was just a very long train delay. But sometimes it's interesting to see how people become much more human when they're put in an uncomfortable situation. When we finally got moving again on the last stretch, we all cheered and some people even hugged. Definitely NOT your average commute.

[MrC]

What needs to be done is to improve the communications systems to trains perhaps having a broadcast system that can be sent out from a control centre direct to the train and station PA^▸ (Public Address) systems thereby not relying on the train crew or station staff to pass on the information.

There's a risk that infrastructure damage can take out comms as well. That happened yesterday as CSR^▸ (Cab Secure Radio) went down at the same time as the signalling, although I don't know if it was as a direct result of the damage or a secondary problem.

[Electric train]

What needs to be done is to improve the communications systems to trains perhaps having a broadcast system that can be sent out from a control centre direct to the train and station PA^▸ (Public Address) systems thereby not relying on the train crew or station staff to pass on the information.

There's a risk that infrastructure damage can take out comms as well. That happened yesterday as CSR^▸ (Cab Secure Radio) went down at the same time as the signalling, although I don't know if it was as a direct result of the damage or a secondary problem.

Possibly was, many of the CSR base stations are feed from the traction substations although the base stations have battery back up these are not as durable as they could be, the new GSMR system have a much more robust power supply system, also being a cellular radio system the loss of one mast hopefully will not have a drastic effect

[Trowres]

It is hardly the first time that there has been an extended period of unintentional imprisonment upon stranded trains. Did they not have a "review" on the previous occasions?

This forum has probably aired previously the lack of operational training for platform & other ancillary staff. With all the gee-whiz signalling installed these days, do we have a lack of Mk1 humans who were capable of handsignalling or clipping points?

Anyone know if they do a disaster plan when designing the latest signalling centres?

[eightf48544]

I'll try and find out from a good source about contingency plans.

There used to be phrase used when siganlling train past a signal at danger which went something like "proceed with caution be prepared to stop short of any obstruction". Basically driving on line of site. Unless the traction curent is off then if just the siganlling that's down surely the first train can be cautioned out of the effected area and subsequent trains cleared  when train in front moves all under caution. In four aspect areas you can often the train at the next siganl it would surely be possible to train drivers to move to next siganl say 5 minutes after the train in front moves.

[Not from Brighton]

It's possible for Air Traffic Controllers to control aircraft over the phone when the link to the radar goes down. One operator dashes off to the radar cabin and describes the content of the radar screen over the phone to the Air Traffic Controller. The controller then directs the aircraft using voice instructions over the radio.
Is it not possible to deploy a collection of signallers armed with radios/mobile phones and some flags and do something similar. If it's good enough for air traffic, why not trains?
Surely it would be easier for the industry to rapidly drum up enough staff to operate a more manual signalling system than it would be to start evacuating trains?

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

there is one major difference, and only one reason why that is allowed to happen.......trains wont drop out of the sky.....

while i agree that being stuck on a train for 5 hours would be very anoying! as long as there is air and water then its just one of them ...... however it would appear that neither were provided by the operator, now the first thing air the 158 and 159 fleet have emergency windows which open with a key (ok i know they dont provide amazing ventilation when stationary but its something) .... why does new stock not have this? .... the second thing and i apreciate this one is a nightmare and that it would be impossible to ensure all trains had bottled water onboard and even if they did,it would involve date checking and somewhere to put it and most trains struggle getting passengers on these days... other option designated suppliers with vans dotted around.... but how do you get it to the train? and how much would it cost? in the days of buffets it wasnt an issue almost every train had one

it seems that we are getting to the point where livestock being transported via road now has more rules on comfort than we do on public transport? just look at the new class 378.... how long before we end up seeing stuff like this on the cotswolds services?