Northern don't want 142s back

[whole diary]

[TrainSpy]

That's why pax numbers are falling then!!

Read elswhere on the forum that on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) all the former West routes are doing well but that Thames and HST^▸ (High Speed Train) were "flagging".Any truth in this?

Some big increases in pax numbers on the West Branches - mainly because of the increased capacity that's been built in over the last couple of years - effectively subsidised by local councils. HST and Thames keeping their end up just about.

[northwesterntrains]

Not really - firstly a trip from Paddington to Penzance will take very roughly 5 hours, as opposed to maybe 90 minutes Manchester to Blackpool. Secondly, those trains will travel over sections of track en route where the line speed is 125.

Use whatever perverse logic you like, but the 180s could be far better utilized by an intercity operator on an intercity service.

I was using the quicker CrossCountry time of approximately 240 minutes on the 180 miles between Bristol and Penzance.  This equates to a train running for 4 hours at an average speed of 45mph.  I haven't looked at the full timetable but  the 07:39 Penzance to Paddington service takes 4 hours 20 to reach Bristol so is has an avergage speed of just above 40mph on that section.

You seem to be under the impression that I think 180s are the right trains to use on the services Northern use them on.  I don't.  I think they'd be better with TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) for Manchester Airport-Newcastle services or Manchester Airport-Edinburgh/Glasgow services, on which 185s are limited to 100mph on track with a 125mph speed limit and 125mph stock would give faster journey times.

I gave timings and speed for Hazel Grove to Preston, rather than Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North.  Hazel Grove to Preston involves using the heavily congested Stockport-Manchester line, the speed limit may not be 125mph but it's part of the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and 75mph 142s and 150s can hold up an express on that line if they are just a couple of minutes late.  90mph 323s don't cause the same problems.  This gives a reason for Northern using one on that service, rather than having 180s in the first place.

[northwesterntrains]

this was 10 years ago on a double class 156 i can only imagine how bad it is now!

And people seem to be overlooking the fact that 2x156s has more seats than a 180 even if a 180 has more standing space.  Northern would rather have 6x156s than 3x180s but obviously DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) make the decisions and decided Northern should provide an extra Manchester-Preston service to fill the gap left by Voyagers no longer running Manchester-Scotland and the only stock available was 180s.

they also have the advantage of electrics

This can also be a disadvantage as well.  Northern's 323s have more seats than a pair of 142s and at off-peak times in school holidays some 323s are running around half empty while 142s can be leaving passengers behind and they can't be switched.

[northwesterntrains]

That's why pax numbers are falling then!!

Read elswhere on the forum that on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) all the former West routes are doing well but that Thames and HST^▸ (High Speed Train) were "flagging".Any truth in this?

FGW did receive a grant from the government due to falling numbers on London services but then National Express had worse problems on the East Coast.

[northwesterntrains]

Perhaps you should join some of the many Northerners/Londoners/Others who use FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to travel to the SouthWest on holiday weekends through the summer & various other holiday times of the year and then tell me a HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/Voyager is wasted West of Bristol

Just the same as you could take a trip up to Blackpool, The Lake District or Scarborough and wonder why you're travelling on nothing better than a 185.

[Super Guard]

Perhaps you should join some of the many Northerners/Londoners/Others who use FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to travel to the SouthWest on holiday weekends through the summer & various other holiday times of the year and then tell me a HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/Voyager is wasted West of Bristol

Just the same as you could take a trip up to Blackpool, The Lake District or Scarborough and wonder why you're travelling on nothing better than a 185.

I don't disagree, and I am not isolated enough to know that the situation is the same/worse for other areas of the country, i'm just making the point that HSTs and Voyagers are suitable west of Exeter, due to the holiday destinations they serve, even though the average linespeed is poor from around Dawlish through to Penzance.

[northwesterntrains]

i'm just making the point that HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Voyagers are suitable west of Exeter, due to the holiday destinations they serve, even though the average linespeed is poor from around Dawlish through to Penzance.

The reason I brought that up in the first place was because one of the previous posts was making it sound like the Northern 180 routes are one of the worst routes that 125mph trains are used on.  With average speeds of below 60mph you can't say that trains are being used to their full potential with regards to speed, but that isn't always the most important thing.  The point about capacity also applies to the Northern 180 services.

If there were proper connecting trains then possibly it could be an idea for Voyagers to not run west of Bristol and a connecting DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) (156/158) or HST service to take passengers westwards.  This would allow for more carriages in the Summer (8?) and less in the Winter (4?) and there wouldn't be the need to send any extra capacity to Scotland or Manchester and back.

[anthony215]

I was told that the class 165's when they moved from the Thames Valley services they would be used on Cardiff - Taunton/Portmouth Hrbr and Severn Beach services with the class 150's and some class 158's being reformed back into 2 carriage sets and being set to the exeter area to replaced the class 143 pacers.

I know network rail are looking at seing whether or not a class 165 could be able to work between Westbury & Weymouth

[grahame]

I was told that the class 165's when they moved from the Thames Valley services they would be used on Cardiff - Taunton/Portmouth Hrbr and Severn Beach services with the class 150's and some class 158's being reformed back into 2 carriage sets and being set to the exeter area to replaced the class 143 pacers.

I know network rail are looking at seing whether or not a class 165 could be able to work between Westbury & Weymouth

The key words in the first paragraph are when they move - at present, there is a problem with 16x on the Bath to Westbury section - Dundas, Avoncliff (?) and Trowbridge.

Westbury to Weymouth.  Now there's an interesting one ... "Olympic Yachting Special"s.  Everyone will be taking the fortnight off work to watch the TV, so the normal TV services will be reduced to minimum length and perhaps a few commuter service pulled completely; you'll then have 3 + 2 16x sets running a Paddington to Weymouth service to get people to / from the various events.  Pure speculation - but you heard it guessed here first!

[eightf48544]

Maybe not as many spare Turbos as you think for Olympics at Weymouth. Don't forget FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has to serve the Eton college Gravel Pit for the rowing.

[willc]

Everyone will be taking the fortnight off work to watch the TV

I wish...

I don't think there will be any spare Turbos at all, never mind the rowing event. There is no way London can accommodate all the visitors for the Olympics, so the organisers are relying on people staying far and wide around London, including the places served by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s Thames Valley operations, so every 3+2 seat they can provide throughout that fortnight will count.

[JayMac]

Forecast to be 123,000 hotel beds in th GLA area by 2012..... is that not sufficient for 16 days of peak demand?

[willc]

I might also have mentioned the people off on day trips to attend events. There is a reason why all engineering work is banned anywhere near London during that period.

If extra capacity is needed to Weymouth then FGW^▸ (First Great Western) already know how to do that. Locos and coaches - or even HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train). With the operational constraints imposed by the single line sections on the Weymouth line it's going to be a question of squeezing as many people as possible into not that many trains and there are better ways of doing that than robbing the Thames Valley of Turbos that it desperately needs. There are estimates up to 30,000 people could be heading to Dorney on some days, which sounds like a lot of extra trains will be needed to me.

[The SprinterMeister]

Can't really think of much stopping them, apart from Dawlish and Torre tunnels.

Where is this tunnel at Torre then? 

As Grecian has already mentioned there are some clearance issues with platform edges and the like with the 16x. These units were built to do a specific job, Thames Valley suburban services and as such were built were to 23 metre length and 2.82 metre width. By comparison a 158 is 2.7 metres wide. There will be several places where clearances will be tight unless the track is slued away from the platform edges or the coping stones cut back due to the excessive throwover on curves with with these long and wide vehicles.

At Bristol TM^‡(resolve), when the 16x were previously used on the Oxford - Bristol services, there were limitations as to which platforms at Bristol Temple Meads due to clearance issues. IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly), Platforms 1, 3/4 & 5/6 were off limits due to the curvature. Platform 13 & 15 did not exist in their current form at that point in time.

[The SprinterMeister]

The key words in the first paragraph are when they move - at present, there is a problem with 16x on the Bath to Westbury section - Dundas, Avoncliff (?) and Trowbridge.

The down line towards Bristol at Dundas Aqueduct is limited to 30mph for other than 15x due to tight clearance, a freight train actually struck the aqueduct some time back & the impact marks are still visible in the brickwork. Whether this issue can be solved by excavating the ballast and lowering the track by about three inches for about 100 yards is still open to question.