Northern don't want 142s back

[whole diary]

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

to be fair the hst's were reconfigured to provide more seating... so why was the same not done to some of the 150's and 2+3 seating put in?... i dont want this more units would be better but umm yeh... what a smart system we have for the allocation of rolling stock

[northwesterntrains]

You seem to be under the illusion that the South West is making these capacity issues up. You try boarding any peak time service and expect a seat out of Bristol/Cardiff/Exeter/Southampton etc. Heaven forbid if you get a 2 car 142 bouncing into Exeter Central at half 5...

The overcrowding issues in the North are seen as if you can get on the train and be squashed in the doorway at a weekday peak time or on a Saturday then the train isn't overcrowded, if people are left on the platform then it's overcrowded.

There is of course also the fact that the newest unit that First Great Western (west) operates is 1992 (ish), meanwhile in the North you have the 332 (?) EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) in Leeds, 185s, 170s. But alas, the South always gets the new stock!! 

Not a fair comparison.

The Northern area covers all local services (except Merseyrail) in three UK^▸ (United Kingdom) parliamentary regions and also extends in to a further two regions.  

If you compare the North West based units with South West based units (both one parliamentary area) then Northern has around 60x142s, 40x150s, around 30x156s, 3x180s and 17x323s.  With the exception of the 180s they were all built between 1984 and 1991.  Merseyrail operate a fleet of trains built between 1978 and 1979.

The 185s may be fairly new but they are inferior to 170s and Voyagers that CrossCountry use on similar services in the Midlands and certainly not designed for 4 hours journeys.  People doing 4 hours on them complain of a very sore bottom afterwards.

170s only run Manchester-Hull once an hour, so only make a brief appearance in the North West.

When most people in the North refer to the South getting all the new trains they are usually referring to the South East, but more recently the West Midlands as well.

[northwesterntrains]

I'm trying to think of a more scandalous waste of 125 mph intercity-standard rolling stock than having 5-car 180s pottering around between Manchester and Blackpool but having trouble.

Anyone think of any other contenders?

I've just checked average speed of the Hazel Grove to Preston and it's 30mph, so no it's not a good service to use them on, but then Northern only have them because DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) have sent some of their other stock elsewhere and there wasn't anything else available.

I also checked the average speed of Penzance to Bristol and found it's 45mph under CrossCountry and slower under FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  So you could argue HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Voyagers shouldn't be going West of Bristol and should stick to Bristol to London and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) use.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

ive lived in both areas and i think its silly to argue with eachother... northen does have more investment and does have priority over fgw however this is for a reason add up the population of the area served by northen, and compair to fgw ....ok we have london in there, manchester to preston i have been on this train at peak times and it has been packed and i mean face pushed up against doors packed and this was 10 years ago on a double class 156 i can only imagine how bad it is now! however it seems to me that the dmu's used by fgw including the pacers would be better utilised by fgw and northen should have a loco renaisance, they still have alot of the infrastructure in place they defo have the numbers to make locos pay, they also have the advantage of electrics

[inspector_blakey]

I also checked the average speed of Penzance to Bristol and found it's 45mph under CrossCountry and slower under FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  So you could argue HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Voyagers shouldn't be going West of Bristol and should stick to Bristol to London and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) use.

Not really - firstly a trip from Paddington to Penzance will take very roughly 5 hours, as opposed to maybe 90 minutes Manchester to Blackpool. Secondly, those trains will travel over sections of track en route where the line speed is 125.

Use whatever perverse logic you like, but the 180s could be far better utilized by an intercity operator on an intercity service.

[Super Guard]

I'm trying to think of a more scandalous waste of 125 mph intercity-standard rolling stock than having 5-car 180s pottering around between Manchester and Blackpool but having trouble.

Anyone think of any other contenders?

I've just checked average speed of the Hazel Grove to Preston and it's 30mph, so no it's not a good service to use them on, but then Northern only have them because DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) have sent some of their other stock elsewhere and there wasn't anything else available.

I also checked the average speed of Penzance to Bristol and found it's 45mph under CrossCountry and slower under FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  So you could argue HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Voyagers shouldn't be going West of Bristol and should stick to Bristol to London and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) and ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) use.

You can make the argument re: speed from say Starcross to Penzance, but as soon as you hit the approach to Exeter and up to Bristol you're looking at 100-110 most of the way.

Perhaps you should join some of the many Northerners/Londoners/Others who use FGW/XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to travel to the SouthWest on holiday weekends through the summer & various other holiday times of the year and then tell me a HST/Voyager is wasted West of Bristol 

[Henry]

 It's a sad state of affairs, companies arguing about who gets what units.

 Having spent the last week travelling around the South - East, you really start to realise how far down the pecking order
 the South-West is.
 
 Why not put the 142's on the Reading - Basingstoke branch, it's only a 25 minute journey, no hills.
 Turbo's on the Exmouth - Paignton.

[devon_metro]

 It's a sad state of affairs, companies arguing about who gets what units.

 Having spent the last week travelling around the South - East, you really start to realise how far down the pecking order
 the South-West is.
 
 Why not put the 142's on the Reading - Basingstoke branch, it's only a 25 minute journey, no hills.
 Turbo's on the Exmouth - Paignton.

I think 142s on the Basingstoke shuttle would be rammed at peak times!, far less standing room than a 2 car 165. Plus - Reading depot only has to deal with the Turbo fleet so maintenance would be really different.

[slippy]

I reckon a pair of 142's on the Falmouth branch would be perfect    Would free up two (or three including the Truro spare) class 153's to strengthen other services....

[woody]

 It's a sad state of affairs, companies arguing about who gets what units.

 Having spent the last week travelling around the South - East, you really start to realise how far down the pecking order
 the South-West is.
 

  Given just how far down the pecking order the southwest is and the financial problems facing the country generally,I suspect there is an uncertain future ahead for some rail services here and some painful decisions lie ahead as the "rich get richer and the poor poorer" rail wise as it were.Certainly west of Newton Abbot maximum sustainable line speeds of about 60mph do not do the railway any favours and will ultimately have a decision on what rolling stock can be justified in the future in the far west.The trend certainly west of Exeter now seems to be downwards.No more SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 159s,or FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 158s,Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance stoppers are often overcrowded single 153s instead of 150s and so on.Given the constraints of rolling stock and infrastructure FGW do remarkably well but you cant make a silk purse from a pigs ear as it were,although the Dft think you can.

[devon_metro]

That's why pax numbers are falling then!!

[The Grecian]

I'm fairly certain Turbos couldn't work the Exmouth-Paignton route, for the simple reason that they have a chunkier build than most units - BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) designed them to be used on the former GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) and GCR^» (Gloucester - next trains) which have wider loading gauges than most lines. The Exmouth and Barnstaple routes are ex LSWR^▸ (London South Western Railway) and so unsuitable, whilst the Paignton branch was originally single track and all the tunnels between Dawlish and Teignmouth were broad gauge single bores. They were doubled for standard gauge trains at the turn of the century, which is why they have an asymmetrical appearance.

As such I could be wrong (and correct me if I am), but I think there's zero chance of them appearing in Devon unless the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) have a rush of blood to the head and build clearances to suit them. So it isn't going to happen.

[Super Guard]

I thought the plan was eventually for the Turbos to arrive in Exeter area, assuming Crossrail etc happens?  That might have just been messroom rumour though!

[devon_metro]

Can't really think of much stopping them, apart from Dawlish and Torre tunnels.

[woody]

That's why pax numbers are falling then!!

Read elswhere on the forum that on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) all the former West routes are doing well but that Thames and HST^▸ (High Speed Train) were "flagging".Any truth in this?