No Standard Class standees in First Class vestibules.

[whole diary]

[matt473]

Everyone has the right to travel in first but I do sometimes get irritated by those who let you know that they are in the same carriage as you by being noisy. The the only reasons I travel first is for some space and peace and quiet and find it fustrating when I dont get that after paying the extra.

I really do not mean this in a bad way so please do not take it as such, but do you not use the quiet carriage in 1st class? This is far emptier than coach H every time I have travelled and is to usually deathly quiet in there. Of course I am assuming the train you travel on is not full of 1st class travellers so some of the noisy people have no choice but to sit in coach G unless they wish to stand

[Timmer]

I really do not mean this in a bad way so please do not take it as such, but do you not use the quiet carriage in 1st class? This is far emptier than coach H every time I have travelled and is to usually deathly quiet in there. Of course I am assuming the train you travel on is not full of 1st class travellers so some of the noisy people have no choice but to sit in coach G unless they wish to stand

I do use the quiet coach both in 1st & std and most of the time it is just that...quiet which is great but there are times when there are those who don't wish to play by the rules. I'm not the type of person to point out to them they are sitting in the quiet coach for risk of receiving abuse. If someone is being noisy there is a chance they could be abusive as well.

[unfarepayingpassenger]

First class should be abolished so that there can be more standard class carriages. More seats for fare paying passengers. A lot of the people who travel in first class are ex-br staff with free travel and/or their partners.

[inspector_blakey]

Would you like to justify the assertion that first class is full of ex-BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) staff travelling for free, or have you just come here to vent?

[devon_metro]

First class should be abolished so that there can be more standard class carriages. More seats for fare paying passengers. A lot of the people who travel in first class are ex-br staff with free travel and/or their partners.

Can I suggest you spend an hour or so at Paddington in the morning peak and obseve the trains arriving with plenty of fare paying business men/women in First class.

Abolishing First class would mean higher fares for the majority of us.

[johoare]

But just to balance that out.. The 18.33 Paddington to Oxford  usually has 2 and a half fairly empty first class carriages whilst we all squeeze on to the rest of the train..

Ooh.. maybe they looked on the first class carriages, decided the train was empty and so decided it was no longer needed from May 

[matt473]

First class should be abolished so that there can be more standard class carriages. More seats for fare paying passengers. A lot of the people who travel in first class are ex-br staff with free travel and/or their partners.

I hate to be there bearer of bad news for you but first class is fantastic and should stay and this is from a student whoc omes from a single parent backround who can not work due to caring for my autistic brother. Firs class is more than reasonably priced on certain journies and nearly all people whobook in advance can travel on at low prices on certain trains. In fact it is even cheaper than standard some times but still makes large amount of money during peak travel, You could even argue that the first class fares are cross subsidising standard class fares making them lower.

(Btw this is only on intercity routes. The majority including myself do find first class on DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) and commuter routes a waste of time and capacity)

[TrainSpy]

First class should be abolished so that there can be more standard class carriages. More seats for fare paying passengers. A lot of the people who travel in first class are ex-br staff with free travel and/or their partners.

Come on use your head. Do you not understand that the guys paying for First Class seats are effectively subsidising standard class customers? Prices are high enough as it is, thank you kindly...

[Tim]

Come on use your head. Do you not understand that the guys paying for First Class seats are effectively subsidising standard class customers? Prices are high enough as it is, thank you kindly...

Not sure you are correct there.  These are very rough numbers and I would welcome a proper mathematical analysis but First class on average costs perhaps twice that of standard, but you get say 40 something rather than 80 something seats per coach and I suspect occupany of those seats is less and then there are sometimes the costs of extras for FC^‡(resolve) passengers.  Very roughly FC income per passenger is higher but costs of carrying them are also higher - probbaly by about the same amount.  Very roughly, I don't suspect that there is much difference at all in profitability for the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) between the two classes. or much cross subsidy in either direction (certainly not to the same extent as adults subsidise children or students).

I'd welcome some proper analysis of the issue and then the differential between SC and FC could be set to aviod either class subsidising the other. 

The argument gets more complicated when you ask these two questions;  1) if FC was abolished, would FC passengers travel SC or be lost to the railway?, and 2) If FC was replaced with SC would more SC passengers travel as a result of the extra seats provided?

The answer to those questions will be different on different trains, but I expect that the answer to 2) especially is more likely to be yes in the current overcrowded railway than it was previously. 

[Mookiemoo]

Well in my case the answer to (1) would be - I would travel a lot less.  Probably not leave the network totally since driving is not feasible but the wear and tear on the mind and body would be too great to do what I've done over the years.

[broadgage]

I would travel less if first class was withdrawn, and yes the Reading commuters all standing in and walking through first do annoy me.
Some train managers move them, but most dont.
Despite the longer walk at Paddington, I would prefer first to be at the country end, thereby reducing the disturbance, though I may be in a minority re this.

As regards fares, I suspect that first class ticket holders do partialy subsidise standard class.
As others state a first class coach has about half the number of seats of a standard class one, but the fares are often a lot more than twice in first.
Single from taunton to Paddington is about ^40 standard or about ^145 in first, over three times as much.

[Stuart Singleton-White]

I travel to London from Reading one or two days a week.  I pay the ^39.40 one day travel card rate and recently on coming home lept onto a very busy train (nothing new there) and stood between two first class carriages, knowing the standard would be packed and I'd be unlikely to move through the train without disturbing other passengers.  To my surpise I was told by the guard to move.  As I was standing between first class carriages I was in first class and if I stayed would have to pay a first class fare! I've stood there before and this has never happened to me.  Is this a new policy?  Is it another way that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can charge me ^40 for a 25min jounrey and still treat me like some Victorian working class oik whom first class passengers should not have to look upon?  I'm annoyed, can anyone enlighten me?

[IndustryInsider]

Welcome to the forum.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have received numerous complaints from First Class passengers about people with standard class tickets standing in the vestibules.  I think the main problem is that conversations to fellow passengers or on mobile telephones can clearly be heard (you have to shout in the vestibules to be heard as the sound proofing is dreadful) and there's always the problem of the inadvertent clatter and clunk of the internal door sensors opening the doors which can be bloody annoying.  If you've paid a hell of a lot for a ticket then things like that can easily warrant a complaint.

It was becoming a big problem on the contra-peak HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s out of Paddington which stop at Slough in the morning peak as for a 15-minute journey lots of commuters decided to stand in the First Class vestibules as they'd be nearer the exit barriers at Slough - this is despite coaches A and B being practically empty!

The Railway Byelaws state 'Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.' - you could perhaps argue that the vestibules aren't part of the first class accommodation, and you'll find that in the majority of cases if you're nice and quiet and on your own then most TM^‡(resolve)'s won't challenge you - though there are a few that have real bees in their bonnets over it!

[devon_metro]

I travel to London from Reading one or two days a week.  I pay the ^39.40 one day travel card rate and recently on coming home lept onto a very busy train (nothing new there) and stood between two first class carriages, knowing the standard would be packed and I'd be unlikely to move through the train without disturbing other passengers.  To my surpise I was told by the guard to move.  As I was standing between first class carriages I was in first class and if I stayed would have to pay a first class fare! I've stood there before and this has never happened to me.  Is this a new policy?  Is it another way that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can charge me ^40 for a 25min jounrey and still treat me like some Victorian working class oik whom first class passengers should not have to look upon?  I'm annoyed, can anyone enlighten me?

It's not a new policy at all. In theory you could have been charged a penalty fare.

It's a similar situation to if a passenger who has not paid their fares sits down, denying you the right to sit in said seat, despite paying.

[BBM]

On last night's 17:06 Paddington-Westbury the TM^‡(resolve) announced that anyone standing in vestibules in First Class coaches with Standard tickets would be charged the full FC^‡(resolve) fare when he came round for the ticket check.

Incidentally a few days ago during the morning rush I was on a Turbo on the relief which overtook a London-bound HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on the main (it does happen!) and I noticed that the FC coaches had crowded vestibules even though there were clearly seats available in FC.