No Standard Class standees in First Class vestibules.

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

Interesting to see that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) at the buffet end of the recently modified standard carriages have the 1st class band over the top of the carriage even though there is no first class seating. I assume to enable the above byelaw to be enforced in the vestibule area between 1st and the buffet serving hatch.

[Tim]

...and to discorage SC passengers from using that door and pushing past the buffet counter to get to SC

[inspector_blakey]

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

It's not a new policy. In fact it's been on the books for years and years, I suspect since the days of British Rail and probably long before that. Enforcement may be patchy but the rule is included both in the byelaws and the conditions of carriage, so staff are entirely within their rights to ask you to move to another part of the train in the situation you describe. An excerpt from the Conditions of Carriage, with my emphasis in bold:

39. Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket
If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class
accommodation is available, and ticket staff on that train give their permission, then you
may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without
extra charge.

On-train ticket staff will not give you permission to use first class accommodation (or the
equivalent) unless they are satisfied that it is not required by anyone with a first class
ticket and the standard class accommodation on the train is full. This permission may be
withdrawn if a person holding a first class ticket requires the accommodation during your
journey or standard class accommodation becomes available.

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation
without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the
carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket
for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.

As IndustryInsider pointed out, this is often a problem since many people making relatively short journeys out of Paddington in standard class on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) are simply to idle to walk towards the standard class end of the train where there are usually plenty of seats available.

Edited to add...
On a practical level, the vestibules being jammed with people (standard class or not) also hinders the trolley service from being able to get through, which is one of the additional perks that those who have stumped up the extra for FC^‡(resolve) are entitled to expect.

[onthecushions]

Stuart: Welcome.

1. It's the coach that is classified, not the seats.

2. Don't stand between coaches - they've been known to separate at speed!

Coach A (quiet) can have more space, even for standing, as customers bunch in the centre and don't move down - just like Reading DD buses fill inside when there are seats upstairs (and at the back).

3. A "principal resident" of Reading and TUCC member had a similar fight with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or a predecessor - didn't he win on publicity grounds?

4. If you are prepared to mess, rather than buy a full return, you can buy a single to Zone 1/Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) am and then an OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) Travelcard with Network Card back. The ticket office at Reading will sell you both, the second as an advance purchase. You should also get the list of "off-peak" trains back - there are enough semi-fasts for a usable service.

ding ding...

OTC

[johoare]

2. Don't stand between coaches - they've been known to separate at speed!

Really? I always stand in the in between carriage bit when the train is busy... I won't be from now on..

[devon_metro]

I wouldn't worry. It would be an extremely rare event! Probably only likely to be an issue in the event of a derailment or collision in fact!

[adc82140]

There are now stickers appearing in HST^▸ (High Speed Train) FC^‡(resolve) vestibules reminding everyone that the whole of the FC carriages are FC.

One of the perks of FC is that you don't have to walk far at Paddington once you arrive. This is somewhat spoilt when you have to wait for 20+ SC standees to alight first before you can even leave your seat.

As I said in a previous post, the morning when someone planted their backside on my table was when I finally complained to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

wow 't j' is slow on the uptake.... what is 'frist class'  welcome to the forum

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm. 

Purely in the interests of clarity: as both of these topics cover exactly the same ground, so to speak, I'm merging them here (although the original topic headings are preserved).

C. 

[grahame]

Hmm. 

Purely in the interests of clarity: as both of these topics cover exactly the same ground, so to speak, I'm merging them here (although the original topic headings are preserved).

C. 

Thanks, Chris.

I expect this is a subject that will continue to crop up time and again - it's so easy for passengers with standard class tickets (those without a degree in railway byelaws  - i.e. most of us) to overlook / not appreciate certain elements of this rule, and to not realise how badly we can upset the passengers with first class tickets who have usually paid more - sometimes a great deal more.

[broadgage]

As others post, this rule is not new, but in my experience was not enforced until recently.
Standard class passengers standing in the connection between F and G are a great problem since they impede the work of the restaurant staff.
Restaurant service has improved since the staff no longer have to fight past all the standard class passengers and their luggage and children.

I have regulary complained to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) about the cancellation of Pullmans (sometimes due to so many standard class blocking safe acces for the restaurant staff)
I have also complained about the frequent non-appearence of the trolley service (sometimes due to standard class passengers preventing acces by the trolley)

Restaurant and trolley services have appeared more reliably of late, perhaps due to better enforcement of the rules.

[onthecushions]

One small distinction in the rules must rest in the difference between travelling (incl standing) in 1st class accommodation and passing through it. In Mk 1 days when the rules were formed, 1st's might be anywhere in the train, so there was a right of passage. With all the 1st's at one end this would be a harder excuse to make...

The other point is of course the excessive standard class crowding in major services having only 5 standard trailers/carriages. Rather than shorten sets to 7 cars it must be possible, particularly with the unused higher power of the new MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) engines, to add standards, allowing 6 or 7 instead of 5. A better peak service to Reading might also help - it can't make sense to have a Penzance passenger competing with a Reading commuter (who'll win!) for the same seat.

OTC

[inspector_blakey]

That's why I believe most (if not all) Devon/Cornwall services are "pick up only" at Reading. Crafty Reading commuters may know that the train will call there, but they potentially face a hefty penalty fare if checked en-route.

Ticket examiners under British Rail (and I suspect today) were always told to use discretion when passengers with standard class tickets were walking through first class on their way to standard accommodation (e.g. if joining the train at the last minute). I don't think anyone has a particular issue with this, it's just when they can't be bothered to walk all the way and set up camp in the vestibules.

[ChrisB]

I appreciate that there are a few HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) that are completely rammed in Standard (usually ones to holiday destinations in the summer) but it is rare, even in the evening peak to see all seats taken in coaches A-E as well as standees cramming every available space in Standard Class.

It appears that the majority of the standees that crowd the HST First Class vestibules out of Paddington in the evening are travelling to Reading (or Slough and maybe Maidenhead/Twyford) and just being lazy. Board a carriage nearest the concourse at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and disembark nearest the exit at RDG^‡(resolve).

Indeed - and fortunately, this should change once the Reading redevelopment is complete - with the easiest exit being off the overbridge further up the concourse.

[adc82140]

I do think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) should serious;y consider turning all the sets round- twice last week my regular inbound train was in reverse formation- 1st class was so much more civilised, and yes, we got a trolley service.

an easy solution- 1st class passengers happy, standard class happy as well.