GroupSave and CrossCountry - unclear restriction.

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

A new one for me, usually a solo traveller.

On Monday next, myself and two others are travelling from Bristol to Taunton and I have priced up the journey and it is slightly cheaper to use G-S3 than my DSB railcard which only gives discount for 2 adults.

My query is regarding use of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services. I'm well aware that XC state they do not accept GroupSave for travel on their trains, but there is nothing in the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 05 ticket validity restrictions against the code for the ticket stating 'not valid on CrossCountry'

Equally, the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) state:

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETS
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

I've highlighted what I see as the relevent bit of the clause. Looking at a G-S3 ticket posted elswhere on the forum, the validity say 'see restrictions'. The wording of the NRCoC would seem to suggest that a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) specific restriction should be printed on the ticket. Merely having CrossCountry say they do not accept GroupSave is not good enough, as their T&Cs cannot trump the NRCoC.

As said elsewhere I'm no fan of XC, but in this instance we have to travel with them on the 0944 to Taunton as this is the first off-peak train and we need to be at a place across Taunton by 1100.

So should we use the 0944 with G-S3 tickets and go armed with the NRCoC?

(As an aside, I though Groupsave gave three folks travel for the price of 2, but on a BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) it is even cheaper. 2x CDR = ^20.80.

3x CDR (G-S3) =^20.55.

Go figure!)

[inspector_blakey]

Possibly bad wording in the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

I'd wager that the ticket as issued will say one of two things: either "Validity: See Restrictions" or "Validity: As Advertised": since the "restriction" on use of GroupSave on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) is "advertised", I don't think you'll get very far.

[JayMac]

But even if the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) is badly worded, it is the ultimate arbiter for disputes about ticket validity. An XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) advertised restriction cannot trump it.

The NRCoC actually says as much in its introduction:

"The Train Companies may not give you less extensive rights (than the NRCoC), except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so."

The specifically in the relevent condition of the NRCoC (Section 1, Part B, Para 10) is that "Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."
"As Advertised" or "See Restrictions" is hardly showing the restriction or prohibition on the ticket. Or is it?

This also begs the question for those less au fait with the complex ticketing system; "As Advertised" where? "See Restrictions" where? And even if you do know where to look - in my case I use NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) and NRCoC - my interpretation is there is nothing that explicity states I cannot use an XC service.

Without refering to XC's own stated policy regarding GroupSave, can anyone interpret the NFM 05 restriction (B1) or the NRCoC differently?

[Brucey]

The specifically in the relevent condition of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) (Section 1, Part B, Para 10) is that "Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."
"As Advertised" or "See Restrictions" is hardly showing the restriction or prohibition on the ticket. Or is it?

This also begs the question for those less au fait with the complex ticketing system; "As Advertised" where? "See Restrictions" where? And even if you do know where to look - in my case I use NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) and NRCoC - my interpretation is there is nothing that explicity states I cannot use an XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service.

As I've said in a previous thread, I think that the ticket restrictions should be simple enough to be able to print them on the ticket.  If they don't fit, they shouldn't be allowed.

I'm assuming that "As Advertised" would include any advertising on CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) which states GroupSave tickets are not valid.

[readytostart]

It's not a restriction on the fare, but a restriction on the discount applied to the fare. The following is from NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service) website:

Groupsave - for small groups travelling together
Who offers small group discounts?

c2c, London Midland, Chiltern Railway, First Capital Connect, First Great Western,First ScotRail , East Midlands Trains, London Overground, National Express East Anglia, Southeastern, Southern and South West Trains allow three or four adults or children to travel for the price of two adults on various off-peak ticket types. Additionally, up to four accompanying children can travel for ^1.00 each.

Arriva Trains Wales and CrossCountry don't offer the standard GroupSave discount, but have their own branded discount schemes.

Small group discounts are currently not available with any other Train Operating Company.

The group must travel together at all times. No further discounts (using Railcards, for example) are available for any of the passengers.
When is Groupsave NOT available?
There are certain days when GroupSave cannot be used on some services. Have a look at the GroupSave Calendar.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/groupsave_calendar.html

The XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) small groups discount is available on Advance and can be booked through their website if you know specifically which train you want to travel on.

[eightf48544]

 I seem to remember when doing transport law for the IOT many years ago  that there was court case (common law) about train tickets probably pre grouping and whether "See Terms and Conditons" printed on a ticket was sufficient.

i believe the judge ruled for the railway company. Presumably that is why "See restrictions" is sufficient to cover the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company).

The interesting question then is who is going to tell you about the restricitons?

[vacman]

Like readytostart says, it is the DISCOUNT that is operator specific and not the ticket, the ticket is a normal Off-Peak day return.

[JayMac]

So, if the tickets are normal off peak day returns, then they can be used as normal off peak day returns. After all the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) validity code remains the same for the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) no matter what type of discount.

And I repeat, NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) says restrictions or prohibitions will be printed on the ticket. Patently not the case.

Last time I queried errors in validity I bottled it and travelled according to the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) interpretation, this time I'm gonna chance it..... watch this space!

[TheLastMinute]

So, if the tickets are normal off peak day returns, then they can be used as normal off peak day returns. After all the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) validity code remains the same for the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) no matter what type of discount.

And I repeat, NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) says restrictions or prohibitions will be printed on the ticket. Patently not the case.

Sorry, no it doesn't. Condition 12 is quite clearly allows TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to detail the restrictions in "notices and other publications" published by them.

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

Frankly bignosemac, I'd rather just pay the extra ^3.55 for the 2 DIS discounted CDR plus a full fare CDR. I realise it's a point of principle, but practically how much effort and time is it going to cost you to fight this and how much do you value that time?

Cheers,
TLM

[Ollie]

It's not worth the risk, plenty of people get caught out with this between Oxford and Reading by chancing it, and they all get sold new tickets.

[paul7575]

The SWT^▸ (South West Trains) platform displays helpfully announce 'Groupsave not valid on this train' after the calling pattern for XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services.

Paul

[TheLastMinute]

As an aside, I though Groupsave gave three folks travel for the price of 2, but on a BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) it is even cheaper. 2x CDR = ^20.80.

3x CDR (G-S3) =^20.55.

Go figure!

The difference of 25p is due to the methodology used to apply the discount - i.e. all three tickets are in fact discounted by a third from the full fare to give the effect of 3 travelling for the price of 2 (2 = 3 x 2/3).

However because a third is obviously 33.33333....% to make things a bit easier across the board the discount is rounded up to 34%. This rounded discount gives a fare of ^6.864 which in turn needs to be rounded again to the nearest 5p (all rail fares are in multiples of 5p) which is ^6.85. Hence after this rounding is done for each ticket, you have the 25p difference.

Simples and IMO^▸ (in my opinion) quite reasonable!

Cheers,
Mike

[JayMac]

Only the railways would do this!!!! All other forms of 3 for 2 offers in the retailing world just give you the third item free. Okay I'm not complaining, because the railway methodology saves me 25p, but what a silly way of working out the discount. Okay, I appreciate that each GS3 ticket should have an equal value, and this makes splittng the cost three ways much easier, but as the rules stiplulate you must travel at all times in your group then one fare (2x^10.40 CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) on one ticket surely makes more sense.

If there are four of you then your 4 for 2 GS4 fare for BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) CDR is a different price than the 3 for 2.

I suppose its easier to say 3 for 2 in the advertising, but in reality it's 34% off for each passenger, rounded to the nearest 5p.

At least the 4 for 2 is exactly that! AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) all UK^▸ (United Kingdom) undiscounted fares end in ^x.x0 so a straight 50% is always possible. If there are any undiscounted fares that end in ^x.x5, then........

[vacman]

Lifes to short!!!!!!!!

[JayMac]

Re visiting this topic... here's what happened on Monday 22nd:

We boarded the 0944 XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to TAU^» (Taunton - next trains). TM^‡(resolve) gripped the tickets without comment, but then returned a few minutes later with his Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) to say our tickets weren't valid on CrossCountry and we'd have to purchase three new SDSs.

I was armed with a copy of NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) and pointed out section B. TM concurred and said that he'd let us off, but he stated that other XC TMs might not be so generous! Slightly unsatisfactory resolution but for an easy life I didn't press the matter.

In reply to TheLastMinute who posted Condition 12 of the NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage). The tile of that clause is:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel

... not 'Restrictions on who you can travel with" The rest of the conditon then states "Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use."

No mention of "the notices and other publications of Train Companies you cannot use"

What a mess!