Reading Station improvements

[whole diary]

[bobm]

swrural - it was 44 years ago that I used to abandon the bus and use the 4d my mother gave for the fare to buy a penny sweet and the 3d child single fare from Reading General to Reading West on the way to school!

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Changing the subject slightly, but just to clear up a couple of points that we've discussed in the past which have now become clearer:

1) Method of working for Platforms 12-15
They all have 'Closing In' signals at either end of the platform and are split into an 'A' and 'B' end.  Trains of up to 5 carriages in length that are terminating and heading back out in the same direction will stop at a 'Rear Clear' stop board located approximately mid-way along the platform in either direction ('A' end is London, 'B' end is the Country End).  That will then allow the signaller to route another train (again of up to 5 carriages) into the other part of the platform using permissive working arrangements at the Closing In signal (i.e. a red aspect with two white lights).

Trains of more than 5 carriages will stop at the relevant stop car marker further down the platform, as will through trains of any length.  Regarding concerns over canopy lengths, the canopies are long enough to shelter a train of roughly 6 carriages long, but any train that has stopped at the Rear Clear marker at the 'A' end of the Platform will have most of its length out in the open.

If anyone has any other questions, now is the time to ask!

Will the "Rear Clear" stop boards (not a term I've come across before) on each platform have any space beween them - will there be any kind of overlap distance between the board facing London at the A end and the board facing Bristol at the B end?

And are Drivers and Driver Managers now happy with this arrangement - you indicated before that there was a bit of a problem with this.

[swrural]

swrural - it was 44 years ago that I used to abandon the bus and use the 4d my mother gave for the fare to buy a penny sweet and the 3d child single fare from Reading General to Reading West on the way to school!

Lovely.  Of course when I lived there (just behind the RBH) we had trolley buses still going across town, IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) from one end to the other, down Oxford Road past Reading West, beautifully quiet and smooth.  The buses were painted an attractive purple.

We seem to be turning the clock back with local and long distance transport and I shall be interested how many people agree with II on his third option, it needs local knowledge probably.

Stapleton Road for the Cardiff to Brightons, anyone?   

[paul7575]

Another route for through XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services in the event of problems with Westbury Line Jn is to run through one of P13/14/15 and then via the Southern underpass, and reverse beyond Spur Jn to reach the down main.  The route used by that early morning XC ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) move I found a couple of weeks back, but in the opposite direction.

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

Will the "Rear Clear" stop boards (not a term I've come across before) on each platform have any space beween them - will there be any kind of overlap distance between the board facing London at the A end and the board facing Bristol at the B end?

And are Drivers and Driver Managers now happy with this arrangement - you indicated before that there was a bit of a problem with this.

Yes, there will be space as they are specifically there to facilitate two trains at each end of the platform.  The platform lengths are suitable for 12 carriages of 23m length I believe, but the overlap needed with these 'Rear Clear' boards means that two 6-car trains can't be accommodated at the same time.  That's a shame as it means that a 6-car Turbo can't share a platform with a 6-car Voyager (should they be lengthened).

This also means possible confusion for a driver arriving with a terminating service which heads back out the same direction as the stopping point with up to 5-cars is the 'Rear Clear' marker with the  6-car stop much further down the platform.  It remains to be seen as to whether there are any incidents as a result of this non-standardised method of working.

'Rear Clear' marker boards will also be appearing on platforms 7, 8 and 9, with the only through platform not getting them (for the time being) is 10 as trains from London won't be able to be signalled into that platform until a later date.

Concern has also been raised about the 'Closing In' signals, as not only is it very rare to get a red signal so close to the end of the platform, but in the case of empty trains leaving the depot from the east end connection, a single yellow aspect can be displayed at the departure signal complete with a platform number, despite the fact that the train isn't actually signalled into that platform but only as far as the 'Closing In' signal.  In my mind, that is asking for trouble.

[IndustryInsider]

Another route for through XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services in the event of problems with Westbury Line Jn is to run through one of P13/14/15 and then via the Southern underpass, and reverse beyond Spur Jn to reach the down main.  The route used by that early morning XC ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) move I found a couple of weeks back, but in the opposite direction.

That would only be possible with an ECS service, not with passengers still on the train as per the other three options.

[paul7575]

Is that because of a lack of signals?

Paul

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Will the "Rear Clear" stop boards (not a term I've come across before) on each platform have any space beween them - will there be any kind of overlap distance between the board facing London at the A end and the board facing Bristol at the B end?

And are Drivers and Driver Managers now happy with this arrangement - you indicated before that there was a bit of a problem with this.

Yes, there will be space as they are specifically there to facilitate two trains at each end of the platform.  The platform lengths are suitable for 12 carriages of 23m length I believe, but the overlap needed with these 'Rear Clear' boards means that two 6-car trains can't be accommodated at the same time.  That's a shame as it means that a 6-car Turbo can't share a platform with a 6-car Voyager (should they be lengthened).

This also means possible confusion for a driver arriving with a terminating service which heads back out the same direction as the stopping point with up to 5-cars is the 'Rear Clear' marker with the  6-car stop much further down the platform.  It remains to be seen as to whether there are any incidents as a result of this non-standardised method of working.

'Rear Clear' marker boards will also be appearing on platforms 7, 8 and 9, with the only through platform not getting them (for the time being) is 10 as trains from London won't be able to be signalled into that platform until a later date.

Concern has also been raised about the 'Closing In' signals, as not only is it very rare to get a red signal so close to the end of the platform, but in the case of empty trains leaving the depot from the west end connection, a single yellow aspect can be displayed at the departure signal complete with a platform number, despite the fact that the train isn't actually signalled into that platform but only as far as the 'Closing In' signal.  In my mind, that is asking for trouble.

Are these arrangements (ie A and B platforms) only temporay until the completion of all the layout changes?  It would be surprising if they were permanent.  It's a long time since I did a "Safe working of trains" course, but intuitively they don't seem right.

[paul7575]

Are these arrangements (ie A and B platforms) only temporay until the completion of all the layout changes?  It would be surprising if they were permanent.  It's a long time since I did a "Safe working of trains" course, but intuitively they don't seem right.

I'm sure they'll be permanent.  Not doing so loses the capacity increase over the old set up (on the relief side - as P13/14 would effectively become just the replacements for the London facing bays).  And as I've mentioned in previous posts, the basic method of double ended divided working has been in place at (for example) Southampton for many years - and safely as far as I am aware.

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

Is that because of a lack of signals?

In a way, yes.  Shunts via Spur Junction involve ground position signals not main aspect signals, so can't be used under normal circumstances with passenger trains.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Are these arrangements (ie A and B platforms) only temporay until the completion of all the layout changes?  It would be surprising if they were permanent.  It's a long time since I did a "Safe working of trains" course, but intuitively they don't seem right.

I'm sure they'll be permanent.  Not doing so loses the capacity increase over the old set up (on the relief side - as P13/14 would effectively become just the replacements for the London facing bays).  And as I've mentioned in previous posts, the basic method of double ended divided working has been in place at (for example) Southampton for many years - and safely as far as I am aware.

Paul

Take a look at Railway Group Standard GKRT0044 (you can just Google it).  The Group Standard (which does not apply retrospectively to stations such as Bristol and Southampton etc, so they should not be quoted as a precedent for Reading) refers to platform sharing and the signalling of trains on to occupied lines.  It specifically states (4.2.2)  that new platform sharing arangements should only be considered if it is not reasonably practicable to use mid platform signals, or any other measure to avoid it (eg timetabling)

I'm surprised that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) got away with not providing mid-platform signals as clearly it would have been straightforward to incorporate them into the initial design.   So was there a specification error for the signalling? Was the manner in which the station would need to operate fully understood when the signalling system was specified?

 

[paul7575]

Understood.

NR^» (Network Rail - home page) do cross refer to that standard in the NCN about the station operations, as follows:

Standard GK/RT0044 Controls for signalling a train onto an occupied line mandates a number of conditions to be considered when reviewing the need for permissive working and its safe application. Whilst the signalling has functionality to allow for permissive moves to be signalled into the platforms as outlined in the Network Change the usage and availability is determined on operational risk and the need to use. A risk workshop chaired by an external provider was held and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) representatives were in attendance. The level of Permissive Working agreed was an output of that risk workshop and took into account a number of factors including distance of signal to platform, speed of approach, signalling controls, approach view of train stationary in platform, whether services are planned to be used permissively etc. The new Platforms 12-15 have close up signals which allow permissive moves to be controlled far more effectively than Platforms 7-11 hence the variance in permissive working allowed. The level of permissive working agreed is more favourable than the current situation and the standard places a requirement on operators to try and eliminate/mitigate the use of permissive working and satisfactorily control the risks.

Not sure what that all means though...

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

Not sure what that all means though...

I think it means that "we'll use a lot of waffle to try and convince everyone that it will be an acceptable method of working under the group standard regulations."  It may well be - we'll see.  Most of the concern seems to be about the SPAD^▸ (Signal Passed At Danger) risk of giving a driver a signal with a platform number indicator (either a 15, 14, or 13) when they aren't actually signalled into that platform (that's the east end depot signal I referred to earlier - T1708).

By the way, to answer a question I posed a few weeks ago, the temporary connection from Platform 8 (which will become the Down Main Loop) to and from the Down Main Line will be restricted to 20mph.

[eightf48544]

We do seem to be getting into a muddle with signalling.

In semaphore days there were three types of indication you could get on a subsiduary signals (short arm two two parralel red stripes) under a stop arm. Depeding on use they could show S for Shunt Ahead into the section, W Warning: Line clear junction blocked and C Calling: On into an occupied section. A W  signal was used regularly between Tulse Hill and Gypsy Hill for Crystal Palace bound trains. Calling on signals were used at places like Staines every half hour to join Windosr and Weybridge portions. Early colur light position signals could show S or C when coupled with a stop signal. W becomes redundant because you'd get  single yellow on the main aspect.

I'm not sure I like the implications of II's point above.

"Most of the concern seems to be about the SPAD^▸ (Signal Passed At Danger) risk of giving a driver a signal with a platform number indicator (either a 15, 14, or 13) when they aren't actually signalled into that platform (that's the east end depot signal I referred to earlier - T1708)."

Not sure I understand as I'm still getting used to modern drawings. 1708 seems to be two headed signal 1708 on left  and 1708 CA on right (facing). 1708 seems to be four aspect signal with three aspects in bottom light and a single yellow above, with a square box above that with a 3, whereas 1708CA is reversed with the 3 aspect at the top and single yellow at the bottom.

Are points 8446 ad 8446B a double slip if so trains from the depot only have access to 15.14 and 13 platforms? Plus there are  stop signals 1706, 1704 and 1702 protecting platforms 15.14.13 between 1708 and the platforms. Perhaps to be clear 1708 should show DRL (13) URL (14) and UR (15) being the running lines the train is routed.

[IndustryInsider]

Are points 8446 ad 8446B a double slip if so trains from the depot only have access to 15.14 and 13 platforms? Plus there are  stop signals 1706, 1704 and 1702 protecting platforms 15.14.13 between 1708 and the platforms. Perhaps to be clear 1708 should show DRL (13) URL (14) and UR (15) being the running lines the train is routed.

Yup, that's correct and yup that's what I would have thought would be more sensible.