Advance fares specific trains

[whole diary]

[The Grecian]

I'm going to Brighton and back from Bristol on Saturday on advance tickets, outward via Southampton and back via London. I have to get specific trains from Bristol to Fratton and from London to Bristol, which is fine. When I booked the tickets it suggested that I might have to get a specific train for the rest of the journey but wasn't clear. I picked the tickets up today and I don't have booked trains on the rest of the route.

Does that mean I can choose any train to complete the Fratton - Brighton and Brighton - London legs? If it does, it still doesn't appear there's any way for anyone to confirm this.

[inspector_blakey]

I would stick to the trains printed on your itinerary (or the ones that National Rail Enquiries suggests as connections for your reserved services). That way you avoid any possible arguments with staff about ticket validity but more importantly on the return leg as long as you are on the train from Brighton that is the "official connection", you are protected if anything gets delayed and you miss your onward service from Paddington.

In any event, you Advance ticket is not valid for break of journey.

[moonrakerz]

Last summer I went to Paignton from Westbury on an advance ticket, only the Westbury/Exeter leg had a reservation. I enquired at Paignton station (on my return) and was told I could get any train back to Exeter. I ended up going from Paignton to Newton Abbott on a Pacer and an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from Newton Abbott to Exeter. (Neither were the "connecting" train for Westbury) The guard on the HST said nothing.

[JayMac]

National Rail Enquiries says:

If the ^Route^ also states ^and Connections^, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Online purchases include an itinerary in the confirmation e-mail. Station purchases include a printed itinerary on a paper receipt, either on a till roll type piece of paper, or at the request of the passenger, printed out on a sheet of A4.

[devon_metro]

So long as the service is non reservable I can't see any problems however if it's a reservable train then to be travelling on an AP ticket then you should thereoetically have a reservation.

[John R]

This is interesting. I've just booked AP tickets from Nailsea to Gatwick (^20 for a family of 4, what a bargain!). But I was balking at booking the AP return because of the risk of being delayed. The alternative is to buy singles Gatwick to Guildford and Guildford to Nailsea, which works out at around ^60.

But having read this, as the Gatwick-Reading bit is non reservable, even if I'm a couple of hours late I can still use the AP ticket as far as Reading (which would have cost ^25 as a turn up and pay fare). So although I then have to buy a new ticket from Reading to Nailsea, it's still cheaper to buy the AP and then run the risk of having to pay another ^35.

Sorry if the numbers are a bit confusing. The other point I noted in my research was that the turn up single fare (again, all these are for 4 people with a F&F Railcard), is around ^106 from Gatwick to Nailsea, but only ^69 from Redhill to Nailsea (Redhill to Gatwick is around ^7).  It really does pay to shop around.

P.S. Gatwick flyaway is also good value at ^100 from Bristol, but at ^120 from stations beyond Bristol becomes considerably more expensive.

 

[Zoe]

But having read this, as the Gatwick-Reading bit is non reservable, even if I'm a couple of hours late I can still use the AP ticket as far as Reading (which would have cost ^25 as a turn up and pay fare). So although I then have to buy a new ticket from Reading to Nailsea, it's still cheaper to buy the AP and then run the risk of having to pay another ^35.

Are you sure the Advance fare doesn't cease to be valid after the time of departure of your booked train from Reading?

[John R]

Good question, and I'd welcome any views. I can see why it might not be.

[Tim]

In the olden days when AP tickets came on those big bits of card, the times of non-reservable trains were printed on the ticket but it said "suggested service" next to them which suggested that their use was not compulsory.

 Having said that the route I took was usually something like Bristol or Bath to Glossop and the "suggested service" was just the manchester to Glossop local connection.  I would usually arrive in Manchester and leg it accross the station and get an un-official connection to Glossop and noone ever queried the validity of my ticket. 

Although there might not be a legal distinction, I might be slightly more wary of using a non-itinerary ticket on a long-disatance leg (ie, Reading-Gatwick) which itself offers AP fares and covers a considerable distance than I would be on a truely local connection.

Two-part AP tickets say "valid only with reservation coupon" or something like that.  They don't mention you needing to carry an email itinary print out or a "till reciept" itinary so it is very hard to see how use of a different train would be detected. (the Condition on Nat Rail website could be interpreted as requiring you to travel on the trains listed in your reservation coupons not the trains mentioned in an email as I am not sure an email print out counts at "valid travel itinary")   I would however steer clear of travelling at a time which is not a sensible connection with your reversed services because that does imply a break of journey and the law on that is very clear (not allowed on AP)

For example If I had a AP ticket from Bath to the North, and the Bath-Bristol bit was non-reserved, I would just jump on the next train to Bristol when I reached Bath rather than risk being late into Bristol and missing my long distance connection.  I would not however leave Bath hours earlier than I needed and do a bit of shopping in Bristol before continuing my journey.  That is clearly not allowed.

Turning to The Grecian's question, personally I would turn up at Brighton in good time for my (itinary) train to London.  If there was a London train departing a few minutes earlier I would catch it (usually, I find if I arrive at a station to get a specific train, I am there in time to catch the one before if I hurry onto the platform.  I'd be rather annoyed with myself if I allowed a earlier train to depart Brighton and then missed my connection out of London because of problems on the tube etc), but I wouldn't turn up at Brighton hours earlier with the intention of breaking the journey in London.  The legality of the first senario is arguable and application of common sense would suggest you'd be OK.  The second senario is clearly illegal and should  be avoided even if your chances of getting caught would be slight. 

Another related point is if you have a ticket allowing a cross-London tube transfer, the TfL^» (Transport for London - about) rules are very clear that you cannot break your tube journey at an itermediate tube station regardless of whether a break of journey is allowed on the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) part for your journey.  TfL do however allow you to use Lancaster Gate for Paddington and  Embankment for Waterloo and other tube stations which are within a sensible walking distance of the London Terminal (and the automatic gates will allow that too).

[bobg]

I've done this loads of times when I have bbok e.g. Advance tickets between Hereford and Stansted Airport - As long as I've got the correct trains between Hereford and Newport, and Newport and Paddington, I've had no problems getting an earlier or later train from Liverpool Street or Stansted.

Also, when crossing London, as far as i can remember, I have been able to leave the underground from any station I like, but I am not able to re-renter using the rail ticket, and so have used Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) or walked!

[paul7575]

... TfL^» (Transport for London - about) do however allow you to use Lancaster Gate for Paddington and  Embankment for Waterloo and other tube stations which are within a sensible walking distance of the London Terminal (and the automatic gates will allow that too).

The logic isn't that clever I'm afraid. A magstripe ticket that allows cross London travel is good for any one entrance at a long list of stations, and one exit anywhere on the same list of stations.

So it isn't actually allowing you to use Embankment because it is near Waterloo, it allows it because it is on the list. (Being one of two stations appropriate for Charing Cross.)  There is no test to compare the LU entry and exit stations with the National Rail journey you are making, so in extremis you could walk for instance from Paddington to Liverpool St, enter the underground and head for Victoria, leave the underground and then walk to Cannon St. Stupid, but the tickets would work. 

Aldgate, Amersham, Baker Street, Balham, Bank, Barking, Blackfriars, Blackhorse Road, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Ealing Broadway, Edgware Road, Elephant & Castle, Embankment, Euston, Euston Square, Farringdon, Finsbury Park, Greenwich, Highbury & Islington, Kensington Olympia, Kentish Town, King^s Cross/St Pancras, Lancaster Gate, Limehouse, Lewisham, Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Marylebone, Moorgate, New Cross Gate, Old Street, Paddington, Queens Park, Richmond, Seven Sisters, Southwark, Stratford, Tottenham Hale, Tower Hill, Vauxhall, Upminster, Walthamstow Ctl, Waterloo, West Brompton, West Ham, West Hampstead, Wimbledon, Victoria.

Paul

[devonian]

I've often got a different train for the 'connection' than is suggested when buying the ticket. Namely because I make it to the other London Terminal in time to catch an earlier one.

Also, I often travel to Kent to see family. Before HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel), the possible list of stations I could use comprised of Victoria, Charing Cross, Waterloo East or London Bridge. The suggested service would often be London Bridge. However, it is often rammed and the train becomes full and standing at L Bridge. So I go to Charing Cross instead. Much simpler, much smaller, much quieter station and I am guaranteed a seat! This has never caused me a problem before.

Coming back, I normally get the suggested service - however I have caught an earlier train to have coffee with friends at Paddington - does that count as breaking my journey? I don't leave the concourse!

[Brucey]

Coming back, I normally get the suggested service - however I have caught an earlier train to have coffee with friends at Paddington - does that count as breaking my journey? I don't leave the concourse!

I've always wondered what counts as breaking your journey.  Is it leaving railway premises or would it be passing through the ticket gate?

I've regularly asked the lovely people on the gate at Temple Meads if I can pop through to the ticket office whilst travelling on an advance ticket and have been allowed.  When returning, I always use the automatic ticket barrier which lets me through (on a ticket from an SVB line station).  As an aside, does anyone know if you can buy tickets from the customer information point on Platform 3 next to the bike racks?

[JayMac]

  As an aside, does anyone know if you can buy tickets from the customer information point on Platform 3 next to the bike racks?

Nope. Info only. Oh, and a good place to to report problems. I always seem to find the DSM hanging around in there!

[Tim]

I've always wondered what counts as breaking your journey.  Is it leaving railway premises or would it be passing through the ticket gate?

It is leaving the station.  barrier staff at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)), have let me thru the barriers before to visit the ticket office, WHS or the post box on the station.