Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[Tim]

Thanks, I've had a bit of a look at it.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it)....

PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) are all under specific legislation which relate to "any person" so the rules apply to minors also.  So on the face of it Children are equally liable under the PF rules.  No distinction is made at all.   

However, the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) needs to approve each PF scheme and it will only do so it the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) does certain things (signs for example) and puts in place appropriate policies in line with the DfT policy.  That policy requires the TOC to instruct staff to give special consideration to children and other vulnerable people.  For example, they are not to have all their money taken off them as a PF leaving them with nothing for the bus home and they should be handed the PF notice with an expectation that they will not pay it on the spot, but that it will be paid within 21 days by post.   When handed the notice they are to be instructed to give it to their parents (which is presumably why the parents  name goes on the notice)  so that their parents can assist in dealing with it.  However, the liability to pay remains with the child and does not rest with the parent (ie if the notice isn't paid the TOC can't sue the parent for the amount) .

[JayMac]

If it's the case that liability remains with the child, surely TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are on a hiding to nothing. AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) they cannot persue a minor through the courts for a civil debt.

[Tim]

If it's the case that liability remains with the child, surely TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are on a hiding to nothing. AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) they cannot persue a minor through the courts for a civil debt.

Good point, but if you don't pay a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) notice, is it pursued just like a civil debt.  I am not sure that it is.

[vacman]

When issuing a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) to a minor generally a "nil paid" PF is issued where it must be paid within 21 days, if it's not paid then the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) will cancel the notice and prosecute for byelaw 18(1) or maybe under the regulation of railways act, the magistrates will always take a dim view of the offenders in such occasions as the offender has already been given the opportunity to pay without getting the courts involved.

[JayMac]

Can the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) really cancel a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) then begin proceedings under the Regulation of Railways Act 1886? Doesn't double jeopardy prevent this (unless new and viable evidence has come to light)?

[inspector_blakey]

You can't be charged a penalty fare and prosecuted for the same "offence", for want of a better word, even though a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) isn't a criminal matter. What I would guess (and it's just that - an educated guess) is that once you have paid a penalty fare in full or appealed within the timeframe allowed, your responsibility is discharged and no prosecution can follow. But maybe if the penalty fare has not been settled within that period of time then the notice can be revoked and prosecution initiated under one of the relevant railways acts.

[JayMac]

Isn't signing the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) notice and agreeing to pay within 21 days an admission of guilt, therefore preventing further prosecution under a different law?

As far as I can see, if the guilty party fails to pay the penalty within 21 days the only option open to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) is to pursue a civil debt. Something they cannot, AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), do with a miner.

[super tm]

Isn't signing the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) notice and agreeing to pay within 21 days an admission of guilt, therefore preventing further prosecution under a different law?

Ah but signing is NOT an admission of guilt.  It is merely agreeing that you have been issued the penalty fare.  If you chose not to pay it within 21 days then you may be taken to court.

If signing it were an admission of guilt there would be no way not to pay it or appeal against it.

[inspector_blakey]

Something they cannot, AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), do with a miner.

I overheard a guard tell a driver that the inability to pursue miners through the courts used to be a real hindrance to revenue protection on the valley lines

Oh, never mined.

[JayMac]

  Fair go. Typo did rather change the context.

Now what about mynahs? Can they be taken to court?

[super tm]

Fair go. Typo did rather change the context.

Now what about mynahs? Can they be taken to court?

Would that be the old mynah bird.  They can mimic humans 'Penalty fare penalty fare ark ark'

[Chris from Nailsea]

You could probably get a mynah up in front of the beak - and they'd very likely have to do bird.



On the other hand ... I'll just get my coat. 

[TerminalJunkie]

Isn't signing the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) notice and agreeing to pay within 21 days an admission of guilt, therefore preventing further prosecution under a different law?

A Penalty Fare is a fare, not a fine.

[Tim]

Isn't signing the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) notice and agreeing to pay within 21 days an admission of guilt, therefore preventing further prosecution under a different law?

It is not an admission of guilt.  Firstly, I think the signature is just an agreement that the PF has been issued (it isn't an admission of liability because you can sign a wrongly issued PF and then appeal the PF).  Secondly, the PF is not a criminal matter so "guilt" is not put at issue (the corresponding term in civil law would be "admission of liability" which is different concept.  There may well be situations where you are liable for a PF but not guiltly of a criminal offence, for example you may have travelled without a ticket which wouldmake you lliable for the PF but have lacked the intention to aviod paying that you would need to be guiltly of ticket fraud).

What happens if you don't/can't sign it?  Is it still validly issued.  I guess in most instances it is in the perpertrator's interested to be issued with a PF when the alternative (prosecution, ciminal record and fine) is more serious.

Are there any legal mechanisms by which civil or criminal action can be taken against a 9 year old (perhaps travelling with parents) who doesn't have a ticket.  Can't be sued under contract law, can be issued a PF, but if they don't pay it they can't be prosecuted because below the age of criminal responsibility?

 

[paul7575]

There must be a situation that can arise where a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is issued, and then it is discovered later (back at the office maybe) that the culprit is a serial offender.

If he's paid up, is that it? Or do mobile RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) have the ability to check by phone? Can a PF be refunded and a summons issued anyway - maybe there's some appropriate small print on the notice?

Paul