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« Reply #180 on: May 31, 2010, 10:09:53 » |
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which could damage the reputation of the British railways  im undecided on this, what about uk residants that are too stupid to notice all the pf signs (genuinly) should they be let off too? |
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vacman
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« Reply #181 on: May 31, 2010, 11:27:34 » |
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And if you are hit with a fine for another reason, this marvelous piece of legislation makes clear that rather than pay the fine, you should only be charged "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied".
I think you've got your wires crossed there, your MAY be required to pay PART of the penalty fare up front if an authorised collector insists, this will be an amount equal to the single fare for the journey, the remainder will be payable within 21 days, so basicly the RPI▸ can insist that part of the PF▸ is paid up front and deducted from the ^20. FGW▸ wont do this, they issue full paid or nil paid PF's, you will still be issued with a PF if there are queues etc and the pax will have to appeal, otherwise everyone would use the queue excuse! |
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chrisoates
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« Reply #182 on: June 08, 2010, 01:06:06 » |
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RPI▸ 's in action today on the school run from Exmouth to Paignton.
Having local knowledge they expected their first customer not to have a ticket but he did !!
Some time was spent explaining to him that he needed to buy a season ticket - I'd imagine that if his parents hadn't already done that they couldn't afford it.
While I was on the service none of the other children had tickets - excuses abounded - the train suddenly arrived...I didn't have time to buy a ticket...all fell on deaf ears as school finished on time and the train also was on time.
Offers to...can I just pay the fare....also fell on deaf ears - nope it's a ^20 penalty plus....
Then came the...what's your address ?.....I don't know....
All handled very well and an adequate demonstration that if you want get somewhere you have to pay.
Depressingly - the avoided train fare still seems to be sometimes being diverted into buying 'fags' for girls as well as boys...such a waste.
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JayMac
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« Reply #183 on: June 08, 2010, 01:28:16 » |
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Contact with the school from the TOC▸ and its RPIs▸ maybe an idea. After the fare evaders names are taken, pass this on to the school so they can take appropriate action. Stick 'em in detention each time they're caught. Some parents may cry foul, punishing the little darlings for something that happened outside school , but tough titty I say!
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"A clear conscience laughs at a false accusation."
"Treat everyone the same until you find out they're an idiot."
"Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity."
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devon_metro
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« Reply #184 on: June 08, 2010, 11:31:03 » |
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Contact with the school from the TOC▸ and its RPIs▸ maybe an idea. After the fare evaders names are taken, pass this on to the school so they can take appropriate action. Stick 'em in detention each time they're caught. Some parents may cry foul, punishing the little darlings for something that happened outside school , but tough titty I say!
Installing barriers at Torre manned between the hours of 0800-0900 and 1500 - 1630 would of course be the best option, a human barrier at that. After all there is only one exit from the station! |
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Tim
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« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2010, 11:41:26 » |
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Good to hear this problem is being dealt with. Hopefully you will just need to fine a few kids for the others to cotton on to the need to buy a ticket.
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thetrout
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« Reply #186 on: June 12, 2010, 15:20:52 » |
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I had an interesting one the other day... I boarded the Frome 15:55 service to Reading, to connect onto a service to Banbury. (I was going to Shrewsbury with W&S▸ ). I spoke with the guard on the platform and asked if I could buy my ticket on the train (Ticket office was closed and the TVM▸ was removed long ago). He said that wouldn't be a problem and told me to take a seat, so I told him i'd be in First Class, which he accepted. Except he never came round to issue me a ticket...  So when I arrived at Reading I had 30 minutes wait for my connection, so I decided to head to excess fares to buy a ticket... I was really dreading this as I had the thought that I might not be believed that i'd come all the way from Frome... But I was suprised at how helpful the chap there was!! I explained that I boarded at Frome with nowhere to buy a ticket and that the guard didn't get to me in time. He asked me what ticket I wanted and I said Frome > Shrewsbury First Day Single with DSB Railcard, and as if by magic, it appeared no questions asked  I did express my concern to the chap that I thought I was going to get eaten when I went to Excess Fares, to which he replied with a laugh and a response of "Fare dodgers don't normally ask for First Class" a line i've heard from a few guards before now...  |
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devon_metro
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« Reply #188 on: June 29, 2010, 22:07:10 » |
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just out of interest dont you have to be over 18 to be bound by a contract?
No, when you buy goods, you enter into contract with the retailer. Under 18s can buy goods. |
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6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01
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« Reply #189 on: June 29, 2010, 22:50:10 » |
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There is a presumption however, that they do not understand the implications of entering into the contract. This means that the minor remains protected, to the disadvantage of the other party. The minor is also able to cancel a contract at any time before reaching the age of 18, and for a reasonable period after without valid reason as the contract is ^voidable^. Although generally minors are protected, some contracts are not quite so straightforward and there are exceptions to the rule.
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vacman
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« Reply #190 on: June 29, 2010, 23:20:08 » |
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I believe that the parent is liable with PF▸ 's, the parents name is put on the notice.
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Brucey
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« Reply #192 on: June 30, 2010, 07:49:55 » |
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I think also that carriage by rail does not just include the NRCoC▸ , but also the applicable statute law and byelaws. You are responsible for understanding these at some younger age and no contract is involved.
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Tim
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« Reply #193 on: June 30, 2010, 11:39:44 » |
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The under 18s point is interesting and one I havem't thought of. I am not covinced that Brucey or Vacman or me have the full story.
Brucey is correct that having a correct fare is not just a matter of contract law. There are criminal laws that require you to pay your fare (ie, travelling without a ticket may be an offense). You would normally be liable for an offense once you reach the age of criminal responsibility (10 in England and Wales, was 8 in Scotland but recently raised/being raised to 12). HOWEVER, I thought the PF▸ are a civil law matter (the main advantage to TOCs▸ being a lower burden of proof and no need to go to court). I assume that PF is covered by specific legislastion though so that it is not just a matter of contact law like wheel clamps is (ie, it is more than "if you enter this train you will be taken to agree to be bound by a contact which includes agreeing to the PF scheme in the event that you lack a ticket")
vacman. I am sure that you are right about parental liability. But what is the legal basis for this? Parents are not normally liable for the actions of their children under criminal or civil law (Much as we migth wish them to be).
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #194 on: June 30, 2010, 15:59:41 » |
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Penalty fares are regulated by Section 130 of the Railways Act 1993 although I've just skim-read it and didn't spot any reference to minors - perhaps a legal mind might be able to make more of it than me. There's also a stack more paperwork regarding penalty fares rules and information on the DfT» website but I don't have time to look at any of it right now. I suspect the issue of charging penalty fares to under-18s will be addressed in there somewhere. If anyone can summon up the inclination to read it, let us know what it says! |
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