Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

You cant excess a normal ticket to a rover so if you require a rover then just find the guard before getting on.

What if you board a DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) train? The NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) says you must buy a ticket to cover at least part of the journey you want to make. So if you want a rover/ranger that is not available from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) you are stuck in a sort of limbo and have to travel ticketless which has all sorts of contractual implications. No cover for delays, no insurance for accidents, and a difficult time explaining the situation if you encounter a jobsworth RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) on train or at your destination. And if you do buy a ticket then you have to go through all sort of hoops to get the fare refunded.

I'm guessing from your posts, vacman, that Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) is not set up to excess up to a rover/ranger? That's a software issue that should be addressed by TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), even if you only sell rovers/rangers once in a blue moon! Failing that, the full range of tickets should be available from TVMs.

[devon_metro]

I was in this situation on Saturday, I wished to purchase a Devon ranger however the ticket office at Totnes was closed.

I wasn't 100% on the buy to the first station thing, so didn't bother. Hopped on the  HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to Paddington hoping I wouldn't bump into a jobsworth. Luckily the TM^‡(resolve) was happy to oblidge when he finally did tickets, however couldn't find it on his Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains)!

In the end I was asked to buy it at the next station I was getting off at, good job i'm trustworthy!

[paul7575]

If you could excess a local fare up to a rover, you'd need to keep both tickets together. Why not just refund the local fare completely and issue the rover?

Paul

[vacman]

I expect a ticket office could just refund the price of the original ticket, it's not a software fault re excessing rovers, it's just not allowed, otherwise people could potentially find a ticket on the floor to get an excess up to a rover etc.

[JayMac]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) bought ticket cannot be immediately refunded, unless purchased at a station with an accompanying open ticket office. Even another station operated by the same TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would still require the ticket to be surrendered and a refund forwarded to the pax. A guard/TM^‡(resolve)/conductor would certainly not be able to refund a TVM bought ticket from his Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains). He'd have all sorts of issues with balancing his cashing up.

As for not being able to excess a ticket up to a rover/ranger on Avantix, I guess it's an accounting issue, rather than the very small likelihood of someone using a discarded ticket (which would still have to be valid - i.e. not out of date or gripped) to get a cheap rover. If that were the case then excesses wouldn't be allowed at all. You could just as easily pick up a discarded, ungripped and valid ticket to use against a longer over-distance point-to-point journey.

Fares are a minefield, and excesses make that minefield even more dangerous to traverse!!!

[Brucey]

I've spoken to a friend who works for another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) (in an office based job, so may not be 100% correct) that tickets exchanged in this way are handled by their staff as vouchers for the purposes of entering into Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains).  So a new ticket is issued (no excess fare involved), payment by "voucher" in lieu of the ticket value and the ticket surrendered to the guard.  Guard then submits the ticket in the same way they would process a warrant or RTV.

I assume FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't operate like this and TBH^▸ (to be honest) it is probably a very rare request* so they don't really need solid procedures in place.

* = Until ticket evaders realise this could be a golden opportunity

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

thing is you know it would be a a very small job to add the rovers to the self serves i cant actually think of any reason not to... i mean they do have your name printed on them if you buy at a station as they are not transferable however if you buy on board they dont....

[Brucey]

thing is you know it would be a a very small job to add the rovers to the self serves i cant actually think of any reason not to... i mean they do have your name printed on them if you buy at a station as they are not transferable however if you buy on board they dont....

TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) have the ability to input and print photocard numbers on season tickets, so they shouldn't have too much trouble handling a customer name.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

exactly, it would be interesting to see sales figures for the rangers and rovers and where purchaced from ... i bet they could actually make more money from these if they were on the self serves say you were having a day out in plymouth from exeter central thats ^7.50, if it flashed up that you could have unlimited travel within devon for only ^2.50 extra alot of people would click it

[Henry]

Lie #2 - You have to pay a fine if you travel without a train ticket

In no way am I condoning fare dodgers. But occasionally, commuters are forced to travel without a ticket thanks to broken ticket machines, and are then whacked with a fine just to top off their bad luck.

Rachel Robson highlights five of the worst rip-offs to watch out for...

However, with all things to do with rail ticket fines, section 8 of the Penalty Fares Rules might just be your friend. According to the rules, a penalty fare cannot be charged if there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket.

In fact, the regulations explicitly state how long you can queue for a ticket before it becomes unreasonable. Section 4.12 states: "We expect operators to provide enough ticket windows, ticket machines and staff at staffed stations to meet the queuing standards set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and their Passenger's Charter under normal circumstances. This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times."

In other words, if you are prevented from buying a ticket because of a long queue, you should be able to avoid having to pay a fine. Take a picture of the queue on your phone if you can.

And if you are hit with a fine for another reason, this marvelous piece of legislation makes clear that rather than pay the fine, you should only be charged "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied".

Basically, the maximum you should ever have to pay is the cost of a single ticket for the journey.

If you take the train on a regular basis, I reckon you should definitely be very well acquainted with these rules and what they mean for you, whatever your ticketing mishap. Check out the rules on the Department for Transport's website.

(I noticed this article on the  yahoo news site, but I'm not sure of it's accuracy.)

[Nemesis]

With regard to the preceding post...

Firstly, the rules, (as referred to above), can now be found here...
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfaresrules.pdf

These regs date from 1994 and quote the rate of Penalty Fare at ^10 or twice twice the single fare, whichever is greater.  (At present, the Penalty Fare is ^20 or twice the single fare etc.).

However, there are proposals to raise Penalty Fares to ^50 http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/nationalrailpenaltyfares/

That should cause weeping and gnashing of teeth amongst some sections of Cornish rail travellers. 

Secondly, caution is always advised when acting upon information posted on  quasi legal, 'unofficial' sites.

I believe the quoted article to be badly written and one which draws on inaccurately interpreted sources as its points of reference.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Foreigners are being let off train penalty fares while British passengers face large hikes for breaking the rules.

from telegraph.co.uk see link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6738609/Foreigners-let-off-train-penalty-fares.html

[JayMac]

The best line of that story came from the 'ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) Spokesman':

"Britain has very high standards for our rail passengers compared to the rest of Europe."

Haven't stopped laughing......

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

did you overhear an ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) Spokesman saying that

[Brucey]

Foreigners are being let off train penalty fares while British passengers face large hikes for breaking the rules.

from telegraph.co.uk see link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/6738609/Foreigners-let-off-train-penalty-fares.html

I think this is perfectly reasonable.

First time I used a train in France, I didn't know about validating your ticket in the validator (or composter as they call them in France) on the platform.  The person who checked my ticket on the train (don't want to call them guards or ticket inspector as I don't know what he was) pointed this out to me but when he realised I was English, let me off any extra fare but asked me to ensure I always used in the composter in the future.

At the end of the day, issuing a foreign visitor with a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) will probably discourage them from using our rail system in the future.  They may also tell their friends/family about this which could damage the reputation of the British railways.