Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[vacman]

All Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) ticket stock on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) carries the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) warning on the reverse and all guards are meant to point this out, also, guards are only meant to issue SDS/SDR/SOS/SOR on trains as a deterrent in itself, unfortunately too many guards just tell people its fine to buy tickets on the train and give them what they want without even warning them that had an inspector been on they'd have been charged at least ^20!
which is pretty poor customer service as when that person travels again they think its ok to just jump on the train, then they bump into an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) and get PF'd!

[Brucey]

Perhaps Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machines should be programmed to only sell certain tickets from stations with ticket offices and TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), unless the guard inputs a valid reason (e.g. ticket office closed, only had ^20 note, etc).  Data from the Avantix machines could then be analysed to ensure that guards are putting down valid reasons for selling discounted tickets.

[Btline]

Remember that most fare dodgers will only buy a single on the train. Many routes do not have Off Peak Singles, so the fact that guards only sell Anytime Singes is no deterrent.

[willc]

If only life were so easy. Many of us don't just walk past the ticket office. We often stand in a slow-moving queue for a long time.

How exactly do you propose to deal with situations like Moreton-in-Marsh, where there is one human being to issue tickets - and that's it. There are times when it is simply physically impossible to sell tickets to everyone before the train arrives, especially in the weekday morning peaks ahead of the arrival of the Hereford-London services, when people want all manner of tickets: Paddington-only, zone 1+2 travelcards, all-zone travelcards, cross-London, to Oxford or Reading, PlusBus, seasons, car park tickets, receipts, etc. Then there are the ones who just say 'first class return' and no more and have to be asked 40 questions on the actual details of their journey before the ticket can be issued and the Amex cards that won't work in chip and pin machines and so on.

And even off-peak, I have boarded trains without a ticket after standing for 10 minutes waiting while someone who rarely, if ever, uses a train is talked through which ticket they need, what time they are coming back from London, etc, or waited while bags full of OAP travel tokens are laboriously counted one by one.

A simple queue-buster machine, able to issue Oxford and London tickets only might help, but what the problem is with conductors being on hand as a back-up on routes like the Cotswold Line, I just can't see, especially when RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) visits to these parts are few and far between. We have two stations staffed 6am-7pm, two staffed in the mornings which also have TVms and the rest unstaffed, although a couple have TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) - just try coming up with a clear, coherent set of rules to apply on who can buy what ticket, on what train, in those circumstances.

You can be as draconian as you like if there are robust, reliable and efficient ways to buy tickets available to all passengers, but the railway doesn't have a great track record in that regard on occasions and given how much it must be spending at the moment on repairing TVMs that have been attacked by criminals, I can't see there's much sense in giving them even more targets.

And if you think guards can't check and sell tickets and still dispatch trains promptly, despite station stops seven or eight minutes apart, just watch some of the Bristol TMs^‡(resolve) working the Hereford-London peak trains. Masters of the art.

[JayMac]

Whilst not (yet!) a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) line, I was mightily impressed today by the guard on the 1007 from Shirehampton to Temple Meads. What would usually be a fairly lightly loaded Saturday train was rammed to the gunnels with pax off for a day out in the glorious May sunshine. The guard tried his very best to ensure that everyone got a ticket - dealing with all the usual enquiries that come from infrequent travellers, moving peeps from the flip up seats to allow bikes on, taking ticket orders and doing the doors at the same time, and doing all this with a smile and happy demeanour.

Top work Wim (for that was his name!) you were a credit to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

Despite all the effort there was still a healthy queue of pax having to buy tickets at the gateline at BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains). I guess with it being a Saturday and the weather being so nice, FGW couldn't rustle up an additional staff member for the SVB line.

[Brucey]

Whilst not (yet!) a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) line, I was mightily impressed today by the guard on the 1007 from Shirehampton to Temple Meads. What would usually be a fairly lightly loaded Saturday train was rammed to the gunnels with pax off for a day out in the glorious May sunshine. The guard tried his very best to ensure that everyone got a ticket - dealing with all the usual enquiries that come from infrequent travellers, moving peeps from the flip up seats to allow bikes on, taking ticket orders and doing the doors at the same time, and doing all this with a smile and happy demeanour.

Top work Wim (for that was his name!) you were a credit to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).

Despite all the effort there was still a healthy queue of pax having to buy tickets at the gateline at BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains). I guess with it being a Saturday and the weather being so nice, FGW couldn't rustle up an additional staff member for the SVB line.

Customer Service on the SVB line has certainly increased recently - perhaps down to the course at Paddington?  The staff seem friendlier and more willing to sell/check tickets.  Ticket sales also seem quicker now Chip and PIN is used, especially since the guard can enter the details, have the customer enter their PIN then let the machine do its business whilst he/she does the doors.

There was a passenger last week who boarded a service at Stapleton Road to Severn Beach, when she wanted to go to somewhere else (think it was Filton).  Guard was very helpful by looking up times of the next train from Montpelier back to Stapleton Road and then the time for Stapleton Road to Filton.  He didn't charge her anything and even scribbled something on the back of her ticket, perhaps for the guard on the return service so he/she didn't charge this passenger.  Excellent service and all done with a smile.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

ok just to follow on from something i added previously... which was ''if i want a rover or ranger and board at an unmanned station where these tickets are not available the advise was to get cheapest fair available inorder to avoid pf....and the guard would issue a new ticket the rover and minus the differance by refunding self serve ticket... say you bought say digby and sowton- polslow bridge and the guard didnt check until exeter central would this not leave you open to a pf

[Chris from Nailsea]

In those particular circumstances, relex109, I'd like to think that any FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff would accept that your buying a ticket from Digby and Sowton was sufficient evidence that that was where you boarded their train - so they'd only charge you the balance of your fare, not a penalty fare.

However, I'm open to being corrected on that, by any FGW staff members here! 

[JayMac]

National Rail Conditions of Carriage says:

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel.

My emphasis in bold. So any ticket from your starting destination is fine, or 5p in a Permit to Travel machine.

[paul7575]

The '5p in the PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table) machine' while TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) were also available has become such a well used method of fare avoidance that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) now only provide PTTs where there is no TVM.  Apparently the Penalty Fare rules no longer require PTT machines to be provided everywhere as was once the case.

Another option would be PTTs that were only switched on when they became the only option, ie the associated TVM is out of action, AND the ticket office is closed.

Paul

[eightf48544]

I agree with willc that the rail industry should, instead of making buying a ticket more and more difficult especialy at a station just before travel and making penalties for non compliance harsher,  concentrate on providing sufficient staff in the booking office to meet known demand, provide TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) that sell the full range of tickets available from that station even if there is a booking office. Also sell Off peak tickets in advance of time.

TVMs should also take cash as well as cards.

Otherwise they have to bite the bullet and sell on the train and where they can honestly say that they have provided sufficient faciities to meet demand ensure rigorous ticket checks on every train.

As an aside on my last visit to Germany, where you were almost certain to get a ticket check every journey this time apart from the ICE we were rarely checked on the RE^▸ (Religious Education) RBs. Maybe because it was Easter?

[vacman]

You cant excess a normal ticket to a rover so if you require a rover then just find the guard before getting on.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

You cant excess a normal ticket to a rover so if you require a rover then just find the guard before getting on.

thankyou :-)

[eightf48544]

Vacman you've just made my point.

Ticket sales are a complete shambles.

Imagine getting to the till in Tescos and being told you can't have oranges at the offer price because it's before 09:30 you cant buy both apples and pears at same time etc.

[vacman]

Vacman you've just made my point.

Ticket sales are a complete shambles.

Imagine getting to the till in Tescos and being told you can't have oranges at the offer price because it's before 09:30 you cant buy both apples and pears at same time etc.

It's a different kettle of fish though, the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s have made a measured decision on removing PTT^▸ (Public Time-Table) machines and replacing with TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s to prevent loss of revenue by people abusing the PTT system by just putting in 5p, to be honest, in 10 years working on train I have only ever sold about 5 rovers!