Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[Cornish Traveller]

  no cause you only get a pen. fare for having No ticket - all you pay is difference in price to anytime ticket (excess). The rule with ticket time restrictions is normally worded as timetabled train departs eg. so if your ticket is valid from 0930 and the 0929 turns up 11 minutes late do not board it, travel on the 0933 and will save hassle and ^20.00+ (as seen at Colchester recently) by trying to arrive a bit earlier !   

[inspector_blakey]

I have a nasty feeling you might not be quite right actually:

Condition 4:

4. Penalty Fares
Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10,
11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply; or
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to
Travel

And Condition 12 says this:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such
as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can
be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train
Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you
are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price
paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that
train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and
publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

_{(my emphasis in bold in both cases)}

So the way I read that is that you can be PFed for using an off-peak ticket on a barred train. The wording is somewhat ambiguous though so I'm open to correction from rail staff.

[brompton rail]

However, my point is that it is your off peak ticket that carries the time restriction and NOT the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s train you use. You can't have an off peak ticket that is valid on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) but not valid on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) unless the ticket is restricted to one TOC only. Example - Doncaster to Shrewsbury O/P return (set by TPEx) valid after 05.00 IS valid on East Midlands Trains (who do have Penalty Fares) and on XC despite both TOCs claiming O/P not valid until 09.00 or 09.30.

[paul7575]

I've watched a few PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) being issued for using an offpeak ticket which is not yet valid on SWT^▸ (South West Trains) trains into Waterloo.  It is only an 'off route' excess that is payable without incurring a PF if I understand it correctly.

Thinking about it, if the PF rules allowed someone to be excessed up to the peak fare, practiced fare evaders would never buy the peak fare, would they? They might as well just travel on offpeak tickets at all times and pay extra if they happen to get caught on board?

Paul

[paul7575]

However, my point is that it is your off peak ticket that carries the time restriction and NOT the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s train you use. You can't have an off peak ticket that is valid on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) but not valid on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) unless the ticket is restricted to one TOC only. Example - Doncaster to Shrewsbury O/P return (set by TPEx) valid after 05.00 IS valid on East Midlands Trains (who do have Penalty Fares) and on XC despite both TOCs claiming O/P not valid until 09.00 or 09.30.

There will always be training issues with XC fares as well, as their own long distance fares, AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) from south of Reading/Bristol to north of Derby and [somewhere on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) I forget] are valid from 0500 as well. There have apparently been cases of XC train managers not knowing this either, so expecting every FGW and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) guard or RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) to know it as well is a big ask...

Paul 

[vacman]

no cause you only get a pen. fare for having No ticket - all you pay is difference in price to anytime ticket (excess). The rule with ticket time restrictions is normally worded as timetabled train departs eg. so if your ticket is valid from 0930 and the 0929 turns up 11 minutes late do not board it, travel on the 0933 and will save hassle and ^20.00+ (as seen at Colchester recently) by trying to arrive a bit earlier !   

You can be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d for many other things than having "no ticket", such as not holding a railcard for a railcard ticket, adult on child ticket, SITTING IN FIRST CLASS WITH A STD TICKET and many other things apart from being off route.

[Nemesis]

How heartening to witness the staunch fellows of the Revenue Protection issuing penalty notices to fare dodgers at Paignton recently.  One jolly chap was writing so fast that his pen was a blur. 

Why do some people think that trains are free?  Would they board buses, aeroplanes or ships and expect not to pay?  After all, we are told to 'render unto Ceasar' etc.

I hear that the Cornish Penalty Fare Zone is to be further extended next year.  It seems that the net is tightening.

Hallelujah!

[devon_metro]

to fare dodgers at Paignton recently. 

The whole population of certain parts of Paignton were at the station then!! 

[Btline]

Why not just allow guards to give our Penalty Fares to customers who have boarded at stations where there was a ticket office/machine, instead of them happily selling a ticket like they do now!

There is no excuse, and it shouldn't just be the once in a blue moon times when RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) turn up that people are nailed!

[vacman]

Mate told me that when Exeter Central was blocked last Wed and Thurs in the evening peak 30 PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s were issued on wed and 25 on thurs, so it seems they are been enforced down in the west! about time too!

[Oxman]

I can think of a few problems with having guards issue penalty fares. It take 15 minutes or so to issue a penalty fare, bearing in mind the inevitable arguement. That's time when the guard can't perform safety or revenue duties. Part of the process is a phone call to check personal details - not always possible on the move in some remote parts. Its also common practice only to issue them when there is more than one member of staff around - not everyone takes kindly to them. Guards working alone on a service have enough problems with fare evaders, without exacerbating the situation by imposing penalty fares.

[johoare]

So maybe checking tickets before people get anywhere near a station platform would make more sense?

And not just during the rush hour either.. I'm sure people fare dodge during the rush hour if they can.. But if someone wanted to test out free travel, mid to late evening, when lots of barriers are open, and there aren't really any staff checking tickets.. well.. it makes me wonder why it's allowed to happen..

[vacman]

I can think of a few problems with having guards issue penalty fares. It take 15 minutes or so to issue a penalty fare, bearing in mind the inevitable arguement. That's time when the guard can't perform safety or revenue duties. Part of the process is a phone call to check personal details - not always possible on the move in some remote parts. Its also common practice only to issue them when there is more than one member of staff around - not everyone takes kindly to them. Guards working alone on a service have enough problems with fare evaders, without exacerbating the situation by imposing penalty fares.

You hit the nail on the head.... apart from the 15 minutes bit, had an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) on my train the other day who managed to issue three between Par and St Austell (7minutes), which included the phone call to verify details! All three addresses could be checked in the same call.

[Brucey]

I quite like the system on Amtrak in the states where on-board ticket sales have an added service charge.  A system like this, in conjunction with only selling the highest priced ticket, may start to discourage fare dodgers.

Obviously, the usual exemptions for the un-TVMed stations would need to be allowed.

[Btline]

Well, perhaps there would be problems. But the fact of the matter is, so long as guards happily smile and sell tickets onboard the train when the person has clearly just walked past the ticket office (= fare dodging, full stop), people will continue to fare dodge!

Guards should NOT have to sell tickets*. It delays them, so they don't get to check the whole train. It also often leads to increased dwell times at stations - unless the sensible practice of the drivers unlocking the doors has been adopted.

*Except on services which call at very minor stations. Even then, most stations should have TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) installed asap.

We need more barriers and tougher penalties.