Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[Brucey]

At many stations (e.g. Bristol Temple Meads), a basic understanding of the local area's stations could easily get someone out of a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) in this case (not that I'm suggesting anyone does this, more pointing out a fault in the system).

"I got on at [insert name of SVB line station] and the guard didn't get to me in time"

What you seem to be suggesting is to lie as to which station you got on.  I would not reccommend this as 1) It would be fraud and 2) From time to time FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will put Revenue on these unmanned stations and if you insist that you joined at one of those stations FGW would prosecute you and you would most likely receive a criminal record.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone should do this, but more that it is possible to do this.  In summary, I was trying to say that you need working TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at all stations in order to have a successful Penalty Fares systems.  With so many stations in the Bristol area being unmanned and unTVMed, you will get plenty of people paying just ^1 when they've actually made a much more expensive journey.

[paul7575]

anyone travelling with cash (young person too young for debit/credit cards or older person who doesnt like credit cards) cannot buy a ticket despite the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) working 'normally'. Does this constitute a valid excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding.

I would be inclined to take a photograph of the TVM with my phone, showing the coin slot blocked and also one of the closed ticket office.

You shouldn't need to do anything special yourself. Disabling the coin slots MUST be known to the Revenue and station staff, and a TVM that you cannot use, AND a closed ticket office at the time, is grounds for paying the normal fare en route or at destination. The PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) rules are quite clear on this.

Paul

[inspector_blakey]

I am entering the debate a little late, but most of the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) around my locality (Cotswold line) have the coin and note slots taped up and warning signs stating cards only, since the ticket office (if it exists) closes at lunchtime then anyone travelling with cash (young person too young for debit/credit cards or older person who doesnt like credit cards) cannot buy a ticket despite the TVM working 'normally'. Does this constitute a valid excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding. Since the journey into Oxford is only 20min then the first check is likely to be the Oxford ticket barrier rather than being able to even find the guard on a 7/8 carriage HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

Penalty fares don't apply from Cotswold Line stations (see FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site for the Penalty Fares zones). And if you are joining at a station where the booking office is closed and the TVM is not in full working order you would be entitled, under the conditions of carriage, to purchase the normal discounted ticket at the barriers in Oxford - see discussions above in this thread.

Well that is sensible.  But it does seem odd to me that a Guard can punnish a ticketless traveller by selling them a "full priced" ticket of perhaps ^150+ but that specialist legal training is needed to in effect add ^20 PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) to the total to be extracted from the customer.  It is odd that PF are seen as a punishment for which the "customer" needs proper legal protection and safeguards (and where the staff needs legal training) whereas the "full priced only" policy is not.

The legalities arise because a penalty fare is technically a fine, akin to a civil parking ticket, rather than "not offering a discount" which is, in effect, what happens when a guard charges you the full fare on board.

And remember, a penalty fare is GBP 20.00 or twice the full single fare to the next station stop, whichever is the greater. So a PF between, say, Reading and Swindon could be quite expensive, even worse if it was next stop Exeter! You would also have to pay the full single fare for the rest of your intended journey to the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) if you wished to continue your journey on the same train beyond the next stop.

[vacman]

A few points, firstly, in the case of issuing a penalty fare for ^20 or full fare of ^180, in such circumstances the Penalty fare would be ^20 or TWICE the full single to the next station whichever is the greater, THEN the full undiscounted single from the next station to your destination, so from Padd to Reading a Penalty fare is ^36 (standard) and ^76 First class, so technicly if your standing in FC^‡(resolve) vestibules you may be charged a ^76 PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) so think twice about it!

RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s will be aware of TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) faults etc but the Cotswold line isn't in the PF area.

Portsmouth to Westbury PF's..... watch this space  

Guards are supposed to warn anyone joining from PF stations that they are breaching PF rules and could have been PF'd if caught by an authorised collector, it wouldn't be appropriate for guards to issue PF's as it is quite a long winded process and could affect their safety critical duties, by giving a warning to would be PF customers they are in effect given a second chance further proving that PF's are there to encourage pax to buy before you board.

[vacman]

beat me to it blakey!

[devon_metro]

I wonder if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will be employing more RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), as far as I know there are only a few at Exeter, Bristol and in Cornwall and presumably more in the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) areas.

[inspector_blakey]

The are quite a few LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) guys and girls, and they occasionally "stray" quite a long way from their patch (maybe they get bored of scudding around on Turbos!) - I've been checked by one between Bath and Chippenham on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) before now.

[vacman]

I wonder if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will be employing more RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)), as far as I know there are only a few at Exeter, Bristol and in Cornwall and presumably more in the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) areas.

getting 6 more in the west according to the rumour mill.

[matt473]

I personally feel if there is a penalty fare area but customer are confused by TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) for example (older people that do not like technology for example) or have problems buying tickets should not be prosecuted IF am effort has been made to buy a ticket when the train has been boarded. There should be adequate information and the conditions of carriage changed to clearly show this so that penalty fares only affect those who do not genuinely make an attempt to pay their fare. Staff know those who genuinely seek to pay them as opposed to those who hide and hope for the best and this should be catered for. By doing this it would remove many of the problems assosciated with penalty fares.

[Mookiemoo]

Exactly

I got off the train from bracknell tonight and had precisely four minutes to make the 1644 Reading to Paddington (Bristol Temple service) - took one look at the throngs in the ticket hall and legged it up the elevator.

I had only a bracknell to reading standard single because there was no way to get a reading to paddington first from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at bracknell and there were two youth/school parties in the booking hall - so no chance of getting a ticket within 15 minutes.

So I got on the train.  Went to the buffet - recognised the CH whilst getting refreshments.  Asked who the TM^‡(resolve) was - (was a cotswolds regular per chance but that was lucky - I had no idea it was a temple meads service when I got on) - and suggested she point her in my direction as I needed a ticket from reading to PAd first and a Marylebone to  wembley standard.

Ticket duly sold.  With a conversation about how stupid it was that technically I should have missed my train.

Now, if an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) had been on board.......I'd have been shafted like.

Note: the reason that I was getting a ticket to wembley is W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) genuinely do accept YP and OAP discounts off walk on fares (check their website) and are more than happy to issue all tickets on board.  However getting through the barriers  is interesting since the sphincter police will NOT believe you are boarding W&S if you don't have a ticket despite knowing you are allowed to do it!

[Ollie]

I had only a bracknell to reading standard single because there was no way to get a reading to paddington first from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at bracknell and there were two youth/school parties in the booking hall - so no chance of getting a ticket within 15 minutes.

Was the Bracknell to Reading bit bought in advance?
As Bracknell to London Terminals (Any Permitted) First Single is ^38.00 compared to ^36.50 from Reading.

[Mookiemoo]

I had only a bracknell to reading standard single because there was no way to get a reading to paddington first from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at bracknell and there were two youth/school parties in the booking hall - so no chance of getting a ticket within 15 minutes.

Was the Bracknell to Reading bit bought in advance?
As Bracknell to London Terminals (Any Permitted) First Single is ^38.00 compared to ^36.50 from Reading.

At the time I bought the BRacknell to Reading I 100% did not know if I was going Bracknell - Reading - Newport - Ludlow

OR

Bracknell - Reading - Paddington- Marylebone - Ludlow

I resolved the situation in a phone conversation on the train

[vacman]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are actually quite sensible in their approach to PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s, the company is quite clear on where discretion should be considered and do not take the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) approach of PFing everyone from everywhere. Saw the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s out in Devon and Cornwall this week and even seen a few PF's issued!

[JayMac]

Would've been handy to have seen RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s on the 1525 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-WSM today. The poor guard had 9 fare dodging scrotes to deal with. 3 got on at Yatton and were turfed out at Worle - having wanted to go to WSM. 6 more got on at Worle and got a free ride to WSM. All young lads with nasty attitudes. The first group started calling the guard all the names under the sun when he was out of earshot.

 

[vacman]

Would've been handy to have seen RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s on the 1525 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-WSM today. The poor guard had 9 fare dodging scrotes to deal with. 3 got on at Yatton and were turfed out at Worle - having wanted to go to WSM. 6 more got on at Worle and got a free ride to WSM. All young lads with nasty attitudes. The first group started calling the guard all the names under the sun when he was out of earshot.

 

Not uncommon unfortunately, these scrotes need shooting.