Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[ReWind]

He wouldn't be able to

How do you know it was a "he" Inspector??   

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

more to the point.... what percentage of services will have designated pf inforcers

[paul7575]

They don't have to be on board any services.  Standing on the paid side of barriered platforms will work just as well...

Paul

[Tim]

why can't guards do pfs?

doesn't it undermine the buy before you board message if guards are still selling tickets on trains?

[inspector_blakey]

Issuing penalty fares requires specialized training in the relevant acts of Parliament, including the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. I don't know for sure why guards are never trained to issue penalty fares, but I would guess that at least part of it is down to union agreements which seek to avoid further dilution of the guard's safety and operational role, with which I must say I have some sympathy.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Issuing penalty fares requires specialized training in the relevant acts of Parliament, including the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. I don't know for sure why guards are never trained to issue penalty fares, but I would guess that at least part of it is down to union agreements which seek to avoid further dilution of the guard's safety and operational role, with which I must say I have some sympathy.

yeh union rubbish aside (can you tell im not a fan) the cost of training everyone to this level would be significant given the legalitys involved also 1984 that year keeps on cropping up 

[Tim]

Thanks for the answers.  Dilution of Guards safety role is a genuine issue and I am glad that the PFer are properly trained in the law.  It may well be that we have the best system possible under the current arrangements of staff roles,  but it is still all rather odd and it does undermine the buy-before-you-board message.  It leads to some srotes thinking "the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) stuff is all BS, If I get caught without a tickets the guard will just sell me one" and to the basically honest customer who buys on board once with a genuine (but under the rules insufficient) excuse ("I was running late and there wasn't time at the booking office") feeling agrieved at being PF'ed when "I've always been allowed to buy a ticket on the train before".

Must contribute to the PF trained staff getting more agro as well.


 

[readytostart]

Thanks for the answers.  Dilution of Guards safety role is a genuine issue and I am glad that the PFer are properly trained in the law.  It may well be that we have the best system possible under the current arrangements of staff roles,  but it is still all rather odd and it does undermine the buy-before-you-board message.  It leads to some srotes thinking "the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) stuff is all BS, If I get caught without a tickets the guard will just sell me one" and to the basically honest customer who buys on board once with a genuine (but under the rules insufficient) excuse ("I was running late and there wasn't time at the booking office") feeling agrieved at being PF'ed when "I've always been allowed to buy a ticket on the train before".

Must contribute to the PF trained staff getting more agro as well.

I know at London Midland guards are supposed to give a penalty fares warning to those buying tickets on-board when they could have got one at the station, I believe it's just a version of the red text on the back of an SWT^▸ (South West Trains) avantix ticket, i.e. if a an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) had been checking tickets you'dve been slammed for twenty quid, I paraphrased there a little.

[super tm]

why can't guards do pfs?

doesn't it undermine the buy before you board message if guards are still selling tickets on trains?

When a guard sells a ticket on the train in a penalty fare area they must warn the passenger that penalty fares are in operation.  This is usually done by showing them the wording on the back of the ticket.

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the reason guards do not do penalty fares has a lot to do with the fact that the guard has to stay with their train.  For example you are half way through a penalty fare and you arrive at the station where the passenger is getting off.  The guard has to operate the doors and I am sure you will not want to be delayed whilst they finish the penalty fare.  As a result of this is was decided that guards would not issue penalty fares.

Just to add that some guards are trained on penalty fares.  Turbos operate DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) between Oxford and Paddington and some guards can issue penalty fares when travelling between these two points. 

[Brucey]

They don't have to be on board any services.  Standing on the paid side of barriered platforms will work just as well...

Paul

At many stations (e.g. Bristol Temple Meads), a basic understanding of the local area's stations could easily get someone out of a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) in this case (not that I'm suggesting anyone does this, more pointing out a fault in the system).

"I got on at [insert name of SVB line station] and the guard didn't get to me in time"

[IanL]

I am entering the debate a little late, but most of the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) around my locality (Cotswold line) have the coin and note slots taped up and warning signs stating cards only, since the ticket office (if it exists) closes at lunchtime then anyone travelling with cash (young person too young for debit/credit cards or older person who doesnt like credit cards) cannot buy a ticket despite the TVM working 'normally'. Does this constitute a valid excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding. Since the journey into Oxford is only 20min then the first check is likely to be the Oxford ticket barrier rather than being able to even find the guard on a 7/8 carriage HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

[Brucey]

anyone travelling with cash (young person too young for debit/credit cards or older person who doesnt like credit cards) cannot buy a ticket despite the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) working 'normally'. Does this constitute a valid excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding.

I would be inclined to take a photograph of the TVM with my phone, showing the coin slot blocked and also one of the closed ticket office.

[super tm]

They don't have to be on board any services.  Standing on the paid side of barriered platforms will work just as well...

Paul

At many stations (e.g. Bristol Temple Meads), a basic understanding of the local area's stations could easily get someone out of a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) in this case (not that I'm suggesting anyone does this, more pointing out a fault in the system).

"I got on at [insert name of SVB line station] and the guard didn't get to me in time"

What you seem to be suggesting is to lie as to which station you got on.  I would not reccommend this as 1) It would be fraud and 2) From time to time FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will put Revenue on these unmanned stations and if you insist that you joined at one of those stations FGW would prosecute you and you would most likely receive a criminal record.

[Tim]

I know at London Midland guards are supposed to give a penalty fares warning to those buying tickets on-board when they could have got one at the station, I believe it's just a version of the red text on the back of an SWT^▸ (South West Trains) avantix ticket, i.e. if a an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) had been checking tickets you'dve been slammed for twenty quid, I paraphrased there a little.

Well that is sensible.  But it does seem odd to me that a Guard can punnish a ticketless traveller by selling them a "full priced" ticket of perhaps ^150+ but that specialist legal training is needed to in effect add ^20 PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) to the total to be extracted from the customer.  It is odd that PF are seen as a punishment for which the "customer" needs proper legal protection and safeguards (and where the staff needs legal training) whereas the "full priced only" policy is not.

I note that some European railways add a "commission" which is comparable in amount to a PF to all tickets bought from the Guard.  

I've never liked the idea that only full price tickets can be bought on board.  If it is supposed to be a punishment for attempted ticketless travel it is not a fair punishment and therefore is not worthly of respect (if you are on a peak-time service from London to Bath without a ticket, the Guard charges you an anytime fare for about ^180 which is exactly the fare you would have paid at the booking office so you get away with no punishment at all.  The same siituation applied to an off peak traveller with a railcard results in a ^180 fare rather than a ^30 fare,  a ^150 punishment which you might regard as rather high and which is more than the cost of a penalty fare!).  I would be much fairer to allow all tickets to be brought on board but charge a ^20 "commission" for buying the ticket from the Guard.  The whole PF complexity could be done away with and the legally-trained RPIs could concentrate on collecting evidence from the worst offenders for proper prosecution and punishment by the magistrates.

[paul7575]

Is there a logical reason why FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't operate PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) on the line between Portsmouth and Southampton - I see from the maps provided earlier that routes and stations are fairly random.  It seems that 'arrived by an FGW service' would be the obvious excuse to use at places like Southampton Central, Fareham or Portsmouth and Southsea.  I did see one youngster at Southampton insisting he'd arrived by FGW from Redbridge - bad move. 

I guess the RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) can always check the CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) though, and throw the book at appropriate passengers...

Paul