Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

are the ranger and rover tickets exempt? as you are unable to buy from self serve machines...

[inspector_blakey]

No.

Condition 3:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel.

Bottom line as far as TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are concerned: if it doesn't sell exactly what you want, buy something, i.e. a ticket for part of your journey which you can "trade in" for a ticket for your whole journey as soon as reasonably practicable. Not wanting to feed a TVM with your card or money aren't legitimate excuses. At the very least this ticket will serve as proof of where you started from (same reasoning as a permit to travel).

Avoiding a penalty fare is straightforward, really:
1. If you're starting from a non-penalty fares station you cannot under any circumstances legitimately be charged a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare), even if your journey later takes you through PF territory.
2. If a ticket office is open, or there's a TVM that will sell a ticket for your complete journey, then buy one! "Conscientious objections" to TVMs will cut no ice - if you don't have appropriate cash or a card you shouldn't be boarding a train in the first place! If you don't have cash, pay with a card. If the card payment isn't working then for the purposes of the PF rules the TVM is not in full working order and you're in the clear. Equally, it's deemed to be your responsibility to allow enough time to buy a ticket, so the presence of queues isn't an acceptable excuse (rightly or wrongly, that's how the rules are!).
3. If the ticket office is closed and there is a working TVM that doesn't sell you exactly the ticket you want, then buy something vaguely appropriate as proof of where you started from and exchange it at the first reasonable opportunity during your journey.
4. A TVM must be in full working order, i.e. taking cash and cards. If it's not, you can't be PF'd.
5. If the station has a closed booking office and no TVM or permit to travel machine, but does have the scary yellow posters threatening penalty fares (I'm thinking Keynsham, last time I was there) you still can't be PF'd since there's nowhere to buy a ticket!

Keep calm and carry on!

[grahame]

.... if it doesn't sell exactly what you want, buy something, i.e. a ticket for part of your journey which you can "trade in" for a ticket for your whole journey as soon as reasonably practicable ....

Absolutely correct official advise.

And may I add unofficially "don't try to get near to the real fare - but something cheap that will start you off".   For you may come across the "I can't trade that in - I can only issue a new ticket" brigade on the train, the "go through the barrier to the ticket office - I can't do that this side" at your first interchange station, and the "but you've used it - you're too late to exchange it" from the ticket office once you get there. That's spoken from bitter - very bitter - personal experience

[vacman]

Excellent advice there Inspector!
I will add one small comment, If for whatever reason you can't get a ticket then go and find the guard/inspector before they find you (ideally see them before yo get on the train), you will get a far more sympathetic response.

And don't forget, you can appeal against a Penalty fare, if you are issued one and the station you joined at only had a part working TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) (i.e Correct change only) then all of this shows up on the screens in Swindon and would be used as evidence in your favour should you appeal, in such circumstances if an inspector is insistent that a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) is to be issued then be co-operative and give your name and address, as you don't have to pay on the spot and then appeal. If you refuse to give a name and address when asked then you walk right into the trap as then you breach the penalty fares rules and are liable to a fine of up to ^500 (under PF rules) or up to ^1000 under the Regulation of Railways act 1889 (basicly you must EITHER show a ticket, buy a ticket or give your name and address, and if the officer or servant of the railway requests either you must do so)

[thetrout]

Excellent advice there Inspector!
I will add one small comment, If for whatever reason you can't get a ticket then go and find the guard/inspector before they find you (ideally see them before yo get on the train), you will get a far more sympathetic response.

I will agree with this... This is what I do if I don't have a ticket... 99.999% of the time, the Guard/TM^‡(resolve) is more than happy to sell you one if you find them first... asking the question maybe as your getting on the train also works in your favour...

You can disagree if you like but your the one leaving yourself liable to a Penalty fare! I hear people say to me that they won't put their cards into a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) coz they don't trust it, I say to them well how do you get cash then? from a cash machine? exactly the same, infact, a TVM is safer than an ATM^‡(resolve) as most models dont take your card inside the machine!

I agree that the machines are safe to use, don't get me wrong... and I will always attempt to use them if the ticket office is closed. But the only occasion I avoid using them is when I buy a FC^‡(resolve) Anytime Return to Shrewsbury or Wrexham at 05:00 on a Saturday/Bank Holiday morning when the ticket office is closed (A ^95+ Fare). Simply because if it does go wrong, I will have to pay twice and then claim a refund, which really is rather annoying. Also, in the same situation I ask the guard before boarding the train if I can buy a ticket from them, which they are always happy to do... I wonder if they sometimes get a little excited at issueing something a little different

[Tim]

And don't forget, you can appeal against a Penalty fare, if you are issued one and the station you joined at only had a part working TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) (i.e Correct change only) then all of this shows up on the screens in Swindon and would be used as evidence in your favour should you appeal,do so)

If you raise a non-working TVM as an excuse then shouldn't the inspector check this before giving you a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) rather than reply on you appealing?   Seems fairer to me as some people will not be bothered to appeal.

But the key messages I agree with - byu before you board and if you genuinely can't then buy something and seek out and speak to the Guard before he speaks to you. 

[vacman]

And don't forget, you can appeal against a Penalty fare, if you are issued one and the station you joined at only had a part working TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) (i.e Correct change only) then all of this shows up on the screens in Swindon and would be used as evidence in your favour should you appeal,do so)

If you raise a non-working TVM as an excuse then shouldn't the inspector check this before giving you a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) rather than reply on you appealing?   Seems fairer to me as some people will not be bothered to appeal.

But the key messages I agree with - byu before you board and if you genuinely can't then buy something and seek out and speak to the Guard before he speaks to you. 

If you look at my full post is says "if the inspector is insistent", yes the inspector should check but I am giving a worst case scenario.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

thankyou everyone

[CE02]

Does this mean that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have replaced all the ticket machines that had been broken in to?

[John R]

Excellent! 

Just a couple of questions, though:

1. Does 'Bristol to Taunton' include Nailsea & Backwell, both ways? and

2. Is this being publicised at those stations affected (for example, Nailsea & Backwell)?

I'm really all in favour of this: it's just that the 'penalty fares' posters at NLS have been a bit of a laughing stock, since they were installed, years ago - even before the ticket machines arrived! 

Very good questions Chris. At Swindon, posters were put up this week advising that PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) were coming in, but I haven't seen any such notices at Nailsea. According to the PF rules, they must be in place 3 weeks before the scheme comes in, so at both stations FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has been non-compliant.

[inspector_blakey]

Yes, NLS is included in the scheme - penalty fares maps here.

Posters were originally displayed for the statutory period a few years ago before the yellow penalty fares notices went up, so I think FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has discharged its legal obligation here, even though there's been a long delay in introducing the PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare).

[vacman]

Excellent! 

Just a couple of questions, though:

1. Does 'Bristol to Taunton' include Nailsea & Backwell, both ways? and

2. Is this being publicised at those stations affected (for example, Nailsea & Backwell)?

I'm really all in favour of this: it's just that the 'penalty fares' posters at NLS have been a bit of a laughing stock, since they were installed, years ago - even before the ticket machines arrived! 

Very good questions Chris. At Swindon, posters were put up this week advising that PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) were coming in, but I haven't seen any such notices at Nailsea. According to the PF rules, they must be in place 3 weeks before the scheme comes in, so at both stations FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has been non-compliant.

Legally the FGW PF scheme has been in place since 31/03/10, the new posters that have been put up state that they will be ENFORCED as from 05/04/10 and are just a courteous reminder rather anything thats legally binding.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks, vacman! 

Yes, on my visit to NLS this morning, I saw the new 'Buy before you board' poster displayed on platform 2, confirming that the penalty fare scheme "will be enforced" from 5 April 2010.

[ReWind]

I was travelling on a train from Bristol to Weston and back today, and there were still a large amount of people buying tickets that could be brought from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), on the train still.

I don't think the guard penalty fared anybody though!

[inspector_blakey]

He wouldn't be able to - guards/conductors can only sell full fare tickets, they can't issue a penalty fare.

PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) are issued by separately trained revenue protection inspectors/officers (RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) or RPOs), identifiable by their grey uniform jackets on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (as opposed to the usual navy blue) and photo ID identifying them as an "authorized person" under the penalty fares scheme.

When an RPI is checking a train, guards will not issue any tickets and passengers will be "penalty fared" instead.