Penalty fares go live in April 2010

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Saw a briefing today stating that Penalty fares are to be introduced on most routes from the 5th April (at the locations where the scheme was meant to go live in 2007) which includes Bristol to westbury, Bristol to Taunton, Exeter to Exmouth, Exeter to Plymouth (including Paignton branch) and Plymouth to Truro, stations which are unstaffed and have no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are obviously exempt.

So make sure you buy a ticket!

Should be interesting... 

Balls, I better start buying tickets

[Timmer]

Lets hope FGW^▸ (First Great Western) get the Oldfield Park ticket machine back by April 5th as it has still to return from ticket machine hospital.

[Sprog]

And Yate's....

[vacman]

...stations which are unstaffed and have no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are obviously exempt.

Not necessarily so. The minimum they have to provide is a Permit to Travel machine, like at Redbridge and Millbrook, (near Southampton).

Paul

OK, an unstaffed station that has no ticket issuing facilities at all!

[vacman]

Bloody hell - thought PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) - Truro went live yonks ago ! Vac - why Truro - Pnz not being included ??

Plymouth - Truro did..-ish. It's never been enforced despite the big yellow & black signs going up 18 months (or more) ago. I presume they actually intend to enforce it this time

the Cornish scheme, along with most of the others, were never actually signed off, despite the signs being put up. As for Nailsea, if there is a sign there indicating penalty fares then it is a penalty fares station.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks, vacman!

Yes, there are penalty fare posters on both platforms at NLS - and, to be fair, our two ticket machines seem to be quite reliable these days, so this scheme going 'live' at last shouldn't cause too many problems here.

[grahame]

... stations which are unstaffed and have no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are obviously exempt ...

It should be obvious, but it differs from what I was told ... so it may be a good time to ask you, for the record, what the official line is concerning boarding a train without a ticket.  This might look like semantics, but I would rather know now that when faced with one of your colleagues enforcing his version.

As a starting point:


My Understanding

Passengers may board a train without a ticket at a station where there is no member of staff on duty selling tickets, and where there is no ticket machine from which they may buy a ticket.

This means that passengers may board a train at an unstaffed station which does not have a ticket machine, and at a staffed station where all the staff on duty cannot sell tickets and the ticket machine is broken.

Quoted to me by a conductor as official FGW^▸ (First Great Western) policy

Passengers may only board a train without a ticket at a station where there are no staff on duty and where there is a not working ticket machine

This is far more restrictive. It means that it I can't board a train at a station with no ticket machine if I haven't already got a ticket with other arrangements.  It means that I can't board a train at somewhere like Chippenham without a ticket late in the evening, because there is a working ticket machine but it's locked away in the booking office ... and perhaps also because there are dispatch staff (but not ticket sales staff) on duty.

I know this looks daft - but it was quoted as official FGW policy, by someone who's responsible for applying that policy ... and there are some other daft things around!

Please, someone with the official line - am I liable to get PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d if I get on the last train from Chippenham, long after there's any way of getting a ticket at the station there, and ask the conductor to sell me one?

I'm all in favour of appropriate penalties against people who are knowingly attempting to travel fraudulently.  But I am concerned that the rules as described "officially" to me will prevent legal travel without purchasing a ticket in advance.

[Brucey]

Another question based on Graham's post above:

If I board a train at an unstaffed station, e.g. a Severn Beach Line station and then have a connection to take at a Penalty Fares station (Bristol Temple Meads).  With only 10 minutes connection time before my next train (the minimum allowed).

It takes about 5 minutes to safely walk through the subway to another platform.  So if I were to buy a ticket at the sin bin, I would miss my connection.  So, I decide to board my next train which is a penalty fares train from a penalty fares station.

Would I have a leg to stand on?  How exactly would they believe that I did in fact start my journey at an unmanned station?

The way I understand the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) is that provided you started your journey at an unmanned and un-TVMed station (a term I've just made up), you won't be charged a penalty fare.   Is this correct?

[Chris from Nailsea]

It's also worth remembering that the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) don't do GroupSave tickets.

So, using the example I illustrated above, when the three of us arrived at NLS on a Saturday morning (that is, when the station was unstaffed, but both TVMs were working), we boarded the train and I then bought our GroupSave-3 ticket from the cheery guard - no problem!

I assume this will continue to be possible after the introduction of the 'penalty fare' system?  After all, I can't see too many guards being happy with refunding us the difference between a '2 adult 1 child return' to Bath Spa after we have boarded the train, if we really do have to buy that from the TVM before we board,?

C. 

[Brucey]

It's also worth remembering that the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) don't do GroupSave tickets.

So, using the example I illustrated above, when the three of us arrived at NLS on a Saturday morning (that is, when the station was unstaffed, but both TVMs were working), we boarded the train and I then bought our GroupSave-3 ticket from the cheery guard - no problem!

I assume this will continue to be possible after the introduction of the 'penalty fare' system?  After all, I can't see too many guards being happy with refunding us the difference between a '2 adult 1 child return' to Bath Spa after we have boarded the train, if we really do have to buy that from the TVM before we board,?

C. 

This is what the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) have to say:

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay
the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to
Travel.

So (depending on where you are travelling and what train you are on), you could buy a ticket to Yatton or Parson Street for the three of you.  However, you would need to seek out the guard very quickly in order to exchange it.

I've always wondered why they don't have a Permit to Travel option on TVMs for situations like yours and my situation in the summer when I needed a rover ticket.  Perhaps set the minimum as the price of a single to the next station (to avoid fare evasion) and only have this option available when the ticket office is closed.

[super tm]

... stations which are unstaffed and have no TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are obviously exempt ...

It should be obvious, but it differs from what I was told ... so it may be a good time to ask you, for the record, what the official line is concerning boarding a train without a ticket.  This might look like semantics, but I would rather know now that when faced with one of your colleagues enforcing his version.

As a starting point:


My Understanding

Passengers may board a train without a ticket at a station where there is no member of staff on duty selling tickets, and where there is no ticket machine from which they may buy a ticket.

This means that passengers may board a train at an unstaffed station which does not have a ticket machine, and at a staffed station where all the staff on duty cannot sell tickets and the ticket machine is broken.

Quoted to me by a conductor as official FGW^▸ (First Great Western) policy

Passengers may only board a train without a ticket at a station where there are no staff on duty and where there is a not working ticket machine

This is far more restrictive. It means that it I can't board a train at a station with no ticket machine if I haven't already got a ticket with other arrangements.  It means that I can't board a train at somewhere like Chippenham without a ticket late in the evening, because there is a working ticket machine but it's locked away in the booking office ... and perhaps also because there are dispatch staff (but not ticket sales staff) on duty.

I know this looks daft - but it was quoted as official FGW policy, by someone who's responsible for applying that policy ... and there are some other daft things around!

Please, someone with the official line - am I liable to get PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d if I get on the last train from Chippenham, long after there's any way of getting a ticket at the station there, and ask the conductor to sell me one?

I'm all in favour of appropriate penalties against people who are knowingly attempting to travel fraudulently.  But I am concerned that the rules as described "officially" to me will prevent legal travel without purchasing a ticket in advance.

That is clearly not right.  If you cannot get access to  a ticket machine then you cannot buy a ticket.  I dont know who told you that but they are wrong.  To put it simply if there is a facility for you to buy a ticket and you did not you would be liable for a penalty fare.  If there was no such facility then you would not.  This would also cover a ticket machine only taking cards and you only had cash.

[Chris from Nailsea]

This would also cover a ticket machine only taking cards and you only had cash.

That is also a very good point, super tm: the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at NLS do have a habit of rejecting coins and requesting a card payment.  For my usual ^3.60 return fare into BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains), I prefer to use cash. 

[vacman]

If you board from any Penalty fares station that has any form of ticket issuing facilities available to you than you must buy before you board, If there are no facilities available at the time of travel (like graham's example of Chippenham) then you must pay your fare to the on train staff at the earliest opportunity (you must seek them out).

As for chris' scenario, I would buy two adult tickets and find the guard to ask for a (zero fare) excess ticket for the other one or two people, by doing this you have paid the fare due and even the keenest of gripper would issue a Penalty fare in those circumstances and you would probably successfully appeal a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) issued in those circumstances.
 only a few people will be able to issue penalty fares for the first few weeks, they will not be issued by guards, but will be issued by gateline staff.

Also remember that if issued with a penalty fare, you can appeal, which you can't do when you are charged up for a Standard open fare when travelling from a manned station.

[Mookiemoo]

But this requires (1) fares to be imposed (2) all guards/TM^‡(resolve)'s not being happy to issue tickets on the trains and not just some of them

I have always wondered at the point of the excess fare window at say Reading.  you arrive into reading, get off your train, walk up to the window now I know for a fact that if I say I got on at slough and need a ticket, no one penalty fares me - so what is the point.  And also, if the whole point is to discourage scrotes, then is the scrote REALLY going to walk up to the window and say they have just arrived on a peak train from London - are they heck - they'll say they've come in from EArley, or twyford so somewhere similar.

Completemadness - its a an honesty box system to try to catch people  who arent, erm, honest

[John R]

This would also cover a ticket machine only taking cards and you only had cash.

That is also a very good point, super tm: the TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at NLS do have a habit of rejecting coins and requesting a card payment.  For my usual ^3.60 return fare into BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains), I prefer to use cash. 

I thought they were made cash only after the various attacks? Do they take cash now?

Which raises another question. Can you pay by cheque at a ticket office or on the train these days?