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Author Topic: Penalty fares go live in April 2010  (Read 80175 times)
super tm
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2010, 20:58:25 »

But this requires (1) fares to be imposed (2) all guards/TM(resolve)'s not being happy to issue tickets on the trains and not just some of them

I have always wondered at the point of the excess fare window at say Reading.  you arrive into reading, get off your train, walk up to the window now I know for a fact that if I say I got on at slough and need a ticket, no one penalty fares me - so what is the point.  And also, if the whole point is to discourage scrotes, then is the scrote REALLY going to walk up to the window and say they have just arrived on a peak train from London - are they heck - they'll say they've come in from EArley, or twyford so somewhere similar.

Completemadness - its a an honesty box system to try to catch people  who arent, erm, honest

Very true.  Until they block Earley.  Then you will be prosecuted for fare evasion and get a criminal record.  They do do it from time to time.
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Brucey
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2010, 20:59:45 »

Which raises another question. Can you pay by cheque at a ticket office or on the train these days?
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/acceptable_payment_types.html#cheques

But with the withdrawal of cheque guarantee cards in a few years, this will probably be stopped in the very near future.

A section of the National Rail site that draws my attention is this: "when the value of the card does not exceed the limit shown on the card. Exceptions to this rule are as follows: ... cheques offer by customers who are travelling or have travelled, or otherwise benefited from Trains Company's services (and only in instances where no other recognised form of cash is available);"  Could be very easy for "a scrote" to bounce a cheque in this scenario.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2010, 21:27:35 »

I thought they were made cash only after the various attacks? Do they take cash now?

Sorry, John: I assume you meant they were made 'card only' after various attacks?  Embarrassed

Interestingly, as both machines have been free from the unwelcome attentions of pickaxe / sledgehammer wielding individuals for some time now, I thought they were still able to accept cash - as I'm sure I was able to pay in coins, relatively recently?  Undecided

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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2010, 21:30:51 »

If there are no facilities available at the time of travel (like graham's example of Chippenham) then you must pay your fare to the on train staff at the earliest opportunity (you must seek them out).
Thats if you can get to them of course. Bit difficult if the train is rammed which tends to happen quite a bit on a local 'West' fleet service.
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devon_metro
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2010, 21:43:18 »

So if I am at Paignton after the ticket office opening hours and wants a Devon Rvening Rsnger I must buy a ticket of some description to be "valid" and I can then swap the ticket and pay the appropriate difference??
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John R
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2010, 21:57:05 »

I thought they were made cash only after the various attacks? Do they take cash now?

Sorry, John: I assume you meant they were made 'card only' after various attacks?  Embarrassed

Interestingly, as both machines have been free from the unwelcome attentions of pickaxe / sledgehammer wielding individuals for some time now, I thought they were still able to accept cash - as I'm sure I was able to pay in coins, relatively recently?  Undecided




Oops! Thanks Chris for correctly interpreting my mistake!
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2010, 00:17:49 »

So if I am at Paignton after the ticket office opening hours and wants a Devon Rvening Rsnger I must buy a ticket of some description to be "valid" and I can then swap the ticket and pay the appropriate difference??

Absolutely right - the situation is dealt with explicitly by condition 3: see Chris's post above.

If I board a train at an unstaffed station, e.g. a Severn Beach Line station and then have a connection to take at a Penalty Fares station (Bristol Temple Meads).  With only 10 minutes connection time before my next train (the minimum allowed).

It takes about 5 minutes to safely walk through the subway to another platform.  So if I were to buy a ticket at the sin bin, I would miss my connection.  So, I decide to board my next train which is a penalty fares train from a penalty fares station.

Would I have a leg to stand on?  How exactly would they believe that I did in fact start my journey at an unmanned station?

The way I understand the NRCoC (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) is that provided you started your journey at an unmanned and un-TVMed station (a term I've just made up), you won't be charged a penalty fare.   Is this correct?

Yes, correct! What's crucial is where you started your journey - as the SVB line stations are not penalty fare stations you're in the clear.

Quote
You will not be entitled to any discounts or special
terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey:
there was no ticket office or no ticket office was open AND there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order AND in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order.
(my emphasis in bold)
Note that this also covers TVMs (Ticket Vending Machine): unless the TVM is in FULL working order (i.e. accepting cash AND cards where it is designed to do so) you are also in the clear.

To take the precise example you describe of changing from the Severn Beach line into a connection at Temple Meads: you can't be charged a penalty fare because your journey started at a non-penalty fares station. Were FGW (First Great Western) to attempt to issue a penalty fare they have to prove that you joined at a penalty fares station. The onus is not on you to prove that you didn't. A similar situation would exist if you were travelling from, say Radley or Appleford (unstaffed, no TVMs, majority of services DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) without any ticket examiners) and making a connection at Didcot.

The NRCoC say that in this situation you should purchase a ticket at the "earliest reasonable opportunity". In this situation, a strong case could be made that a 10-minute connection at BRI» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) is not a reasonable opportunity. The bottom line is that the NRCoC actually protect you quite well as long as you have started your journey at a station where no ticket-buying facilities exist. Unfortunately not all staff seem to be fully aware of this.

I am reminded of an incident a few years ago when I was travelling from Oxford to Bristol by way of REading due to engineering work. This was at stupid-o-clock in the morning, so the ticket office was shut. At the time there was only one ticket machine that would have sold me a ticket to Bristol and this was b*gg*red, so I fed some coins into the PERTIS (Permit to travel) machine and got a permit to travel instead. Train to Reading was DOO, no staff on board, and ran slightly late so I had a fairly tight connection to make the Bristol service. Even though I had a permit to travel and had boarded at a station without ticket office or fully working TVMs the guard initially tried to bully me into paying the standard open fare. I stood my ground and he relented to a Saver, but still refused to apply a Y-P discount (this is back in the days when I was young enough for one of them). Left with little choice I coughed up for the saver. A call to FGW customer relations at the end of the journey elicited the spectacularly tactless (and more to the point wrong) response that I should not have boarded that train at Reading without a ticket even though I could not purchase one at my origin station. When I asked if that meant I should have missed my connection she said, simply "yes". At this point I dropped an email to the marvellous Barry Doe who fired off a quick message to someone senior (Elaine Holt, if memory serves) pointing out that FGW were flagrantly breaching the NRCoC, which elicited an extremely rapid, although somewhat sanctimonious letter of apology and a refund to the correct fare.
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Mookiemoo
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2010, 00:27:15 »

But the whole point is - it bunkum - you are not entightled - yes

HOWEVER - when only a small minority of staff actually uphold the laws, then it is never going to work,

You are not entightled to anything other than an anytime single or return on board but with a small number of exceptions - you can still buy all tickets on the train regardless of where you board.

occasionally an officious arriva guard may ask how I got on at newport and I explain I came off an FGW (First Great Western) train and I didnt have time to get over the bridge to the ticket office and come back again.  I can think of only three guards who wont sell the appropriate ticket - one arriva, two FGW and even then one of the FGW only did it after I pissed him off.  170(ish) quid that cost me - open single PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to NWP or get home at 1am!

so either penalty fares are there and are ALWAYS enforced or - dont bother.
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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2010, 01:45:30 »

You are not entightled to anything other than an anytime single or return on board but with a small number of exceptions - you can still buy all tickets on the train regardless of where you board.

occasionally an officious arriva guard may ask how I got on at newport and I explain I came off an FGW (First Great Western) train and I didnt have time to get over the bridge to the ticket office and come back again.  I can think of only three guards who wont sell the appropriate ticket - one arriva, two FGW and even then one of the FGW only did it after I pissed him off.  170(ish) quid that cost me - open single PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to NWP or get home at 1am!

Just out of interest, do you think that the same leniency would be shown if you weren't paying for 1st Class fares, or weren't a regular traveller whose unusual travel pattern probably makes you known to the staff as somebody who isn't deliberately trying to fare evade?
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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2010, 02:06:53 »

You are not entightled to anything other than an anytime single or return on board but with a small number of exceptions - you can still buy all tickets on the train regardless of where you board.

occasionally an officious arriva guard may ask how I got on at newport and I explain I came off an FGW (First Great Western) train and I didnt have time to get over the bridge to the ticket office and come back again.  I can think of only three guards who wont sell the appropriate ticket - one arriva, two FGW and even then one of the FGW only did it after I pissed him off.  170(ish) quid that cost me - open single PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to NWP or get home at 1am!



Just out of interest, do you think that the same leniency would be shown if you weren't paying for 1st Class fares, or weren't a regular traveller whose unusual travel pattern probably makes you known to the staff as somebody who isn't deliberately trying to fare evade?

I honestly don't know - I do often wonder if anyone on here actually knows who I am and has seen me - short fat scouser with a penchent for wine (although not the chardonnay! please god no!) travelling WOS» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - thames valley or lud via newport!  cant be many of me!

and we are forecast snow in the morning so for the fourth weak in a row (pneumonia, snow etc) I am WFH (Working From Home) tomorrow
  FGW loss

edited to correct the quoting
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 02:16:04 by FallenAngel » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2010, 13:08:11 »

I honestly don't know - I do often wonder if anyone on here actually knows who I am and has seen me - short fat scouser with a penchent for wine (although not the chardonnay! please god no!) travelling WOS» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) - thames valley or lud via newport!  cant be many of me!

I'll make sure I carry a packet of rice crackers with me from now on so I can identify you when you start retching as I walk through the train.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2010, 20:10:35 »

Ok... Here is a scenario I found myself in some time ago

Going back about  2+1/2 years when FGW (First Great Western) had ticket machines at Trowbridge. I took a train mid evening (it was dark) and didn't fancy the 3 youths loitering next to the ticket machine on Platform 1... So I went the other ticket machine which was out of service. So I boarded the train and the guard was about as helpful as a Bull in a china shop. They refused to let me use my Disabled Railcard and treated me like the usual scrotes you get in this area... I stood my ground and said that if I was travelling with NXEA (National Express East Anglia) (Who operate a PF (Penalty Fare) Scheme) I can still board a train without a ticket and the full range of tickets (and no PF's) would be available to me as I hold the the Disabled Railcard. Reluctantly they sold me a ticket.

Now lets look at the little old lady... As I have observed at Bath Spa, they have absolutely no interest in attempting to use a ticket machine. When the ticket office is closed, they will simply board the train without a ticket. Now the guard understands the eldery lady's fear of technology and issues an Off Peak ticket to Salisbury.
Then we come to a youth who wants to go to Trowbridge who couldn't buy a ticket because the machines weren't taking cards. Guard is not sympathic and attempts to issue a penalty fare. (I prepare to be shot for this comment but I mean this in all seriousness) Surely the youth could argue discrimination as little old lady got an Off Peak Ticket without any questions being asked...??

Just a thought, but I thought it may be worth pointing out Wink
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Grin Grin Grin Grin
super tm
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 21:08:35 »



Now lets look at the little old lady... As I have observed at Bath Spa, they have absolutely no interest in attempting to use a ticket machine. When the ticket office is closed, they will simply board the train without a ticket. Now the guard understands the eldery lady's fear of technology and issues an Off Peak ticket to Salisbury.
Then we come to a youth who wants to go to Trowbridge who couldn't buy a ticket because the machines weren't taking cards. Guard is not sympathic and attempts to issue a penalty fare. (I prepare to be shot for this comment but I mean this in all seriousness) Surely the youth could argue discrimination as little old lady got an Off Peak Ticket without any questions being asked...??

Just a couple of things.  Guards are not allowed to issue penalty fares.  That can only be done by authorised penalty fares collectors who have had the correct legal training.  Guards are not trained for this.

In my experience the proverbial little old lady will always have been down to the ticket office in the morning to buy a ticket.  Little old ladies dont like to travel without a ticket its just not in their nature  Grin
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2010, 21:33:13 »

Actually she was probably there two months before generating the most enormous queue whilst she made the booking clerk sort through every possible advance purchase fare in excruciating detail before deciding that it was all a waste of time and she'd go with a cheap day return after all...  Smiley

More importantly referring to the trout's "youth whose card didn't work scenario", as I said above, unless the ticket machine is in full working order a PF (Penalty Fare) cannot legitimately be charged. THat means that if it's a machine designed to take both cards and cash, it should be accepting both cards and cash.
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2010, 22:49:54 »

I've got no problem with a penalty fare system but I would have thought it's going to be difficult to enforce on the 'Devon Metro' (the line not the poster Wink. Since some of the stations are understandably not penalty fare zones it may not be long before experienced scrotes (sorry fare dodgers) start claiming they got on at Polsloe Bridge or Exton (non-PF (Penalty Fare) stations) rather than Digby or Topsham. Given how busy some of the 2 car services are it's going to be difficult for guards to enforce properly. I suspect it's the same on the other side of the Exe at peak times.

It'll be interesting to see how rigidly it's enforced - I don't live in Exeter anymore but this site is a useful barometer of these things.
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