Welsh report calls to cut Swindon train stops - January 2010

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From This is Wiltshire:

The Welsh Assembly is lobbying the Government to cut train stops in Swindon to improve rail times between South Wales and London.

They have called for upgrades to the railways and for ministers to have more powers over the network.

The cross-party Enterprise and Learning Committee said more control over railways should be devolved to Cardiff with funding given to the assembly government.

Faster trains to the rest of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and Europe are needed to make sure Wales ^will not be left on the slow train^.

Cutting out stations such as Swindon and Reading would reduce journey times further, the report says.

Ministers should lobby for a high-speed line from South Wales to London and for North Wales to be directly connected to a proposed high-speed line between London and Scotland, it says.

Journeys from Cardiff to London Paddington usually take two hours and five minutes ^ 25 minutes longer than they did 20 years ago because of more station stops.

The assembly government is urged to continue to press for the electrification of the railway network. Electrifying the Great Western line, expected to take eight years, would cut 19 minutes off journeys from London to Swansea.

The report says the assembly government, transport groups and Network Rail should work together on ways to improve services, including line upgrades, more fast trains and a limited stop service on alternate hours in peak times.

Committee chairman Gareth Jones said: ^The evidence we have gathered indicates that freight and passenger traffic on our network will increase over the coming years. It is important that the Welsh government provides for that extra demand and that Wales benefits from high-speed rail links to the rest of the UK and Europe. The Welsh Government also needs to work with partners to improve the rail links and services between North and South Wales and to make stations fully accessible to all passengers."

[Mookiemoo]

Are there really more stops than 20 years ago?

Newport
Bristol
Swindon
Reading
London

Doesnt seem a whole hell of a lot to me - Didcot could easily be removed - the only one I can see not being there 20 yers ago would be Bristol Parkway

[John R]

There used to be a non stop train every two hours from Newport to Paddington, which gave journey times from Cardiff to Paddington of <1 hr 45m.  This service began in 1977 after the full speed up following HST^▸ (High Speed Train) introduction until the mid eighties, when the rot started to set in with extra stops, recovery time, and 8 coach sets all adding a few minutes here and there until we end up with trains 20 minutes slower.

It's the same on the Temple Meads run too.

[matt473]

I would have thought if this were to happen then it would make sense to have the peak services to Cardiff be stoppers whilst services orginating from Swansea travel as fast between Bristol and Reading. Removing the stop at Reading may not be an ideal situation as it is a station important for connections but Swindon less so therefore could be easier to drop from services as such.

Of course this does not solve the problem caused by removing stops which is how do you compensate for it?

[Mookiemoo]

Of course this does not solve the problem caused by removing stops which is how do you compensate for it?

Do you need to?

However I'd also say does South Wales need that many fast trains - surely SOME which stop and some which don't is fine

Now Swindon - even if you remove the swanseas - you still have bristol, cheltenham and cardiffs stopping plus some others I guess that I never use.

[eightf48544]

Use to catch the Cardiff's from Reading for both Cardiff and Bristol Parkway most ran non stop to Parkway. In about 45 minutes. Just time to get a full english breakfast on the way down to Bristol.

[devon_metro]

Cutting Swindon would save about 4 mins, then the train would be on the tail of vomits to Bristol at Parkway

[Chris from Nailsea]

I take it you don't support the proposal from the Enterprise and Learning Committee then, devon_metro? 

[Btline]

I wouldn't remove Reading, as it a major commuter destination and interchange. But I see no reason why Swindon and Didcot stops shouldn't be cut from peak trains. Couple this with electrification and removal of slack, I'm sure the journey could be cut by over half and hour, which is what they should be aiming for.

[devon_metro]

I wouldn't remove Reading, as it a major commuter destination and interchange. But I see no reason why Swindon and Didcot stops shouldn't be cut from peak trains. Couple this with electrification and removal of slack, I'm sure the journey could be cut by over half and hour, which is what they should be aiming for.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) isn't going to be cutting many stops at Swindon. Many of the managers travel to Swindon!

And replying to Chris, I was simply pointing out how with the current timetable structure the benefits would be very limited

[Worcester_Passenger]

In the current timetable, the standard running time from Paddington to Cardiff is 2:01 on trains that continue to Swansea, but 2:06-2:08 on the Cardiffs, which shows how much timetable padding there is.

Meanwhile, the Summer 1993 timetable had an hourly service through to Swansea. Standard off-peak running time from Paddington to Cardiff was 1:58, calling at Reading, Swindon, Parkway and Newport. The Reading stop was cut out of the 16:00, 17:00, 18:00 (and an 18:25 extra). The Swindon stop was cut out of the 18:00 and 18:25. But that only reduced the running time to 1:54. Fastest of the day was the 09:25, which only stopped at Reading and took 1:48 to Cardiff. But that's hardly a worthwhile time of day (and the train was the summer-only one to Fishguard Harbour!).

In the opposite direction, standard off-peak time Cardiff-Paddington was also 1:55. Fastest was the 07:25 from Cardiff, which took 1:50 by not stopping at Swindon or Reading.

I can't see the point of not stopping at Reading. Much more important traffic-wise now than it was 20 years ago, and you have to run through the platform anyway - so a non-stop is going to reduce the line capacity.

[Hafren]

Shortly after Paddington-Cardiff became half-hourly, there was a period when several off the off-peak Swanseas missed the Swindon stop (possibly Summer 2002?). It didn't last long - someone realised that with Cardiff and Bristol both being half-hourly, it was possibly to provide a 15-minute interval at Swindon.

Given that the Cheltenham trains run just behind the Paddington/Swansea trains in both directions, they could omit the Swindon stop in the hours when there's a Cheltenham train. In the down direction, that would require re-timing of other services through Bristol Parkway, and of the Portsmouth-Cardiff path through the Severn Tunnel, and no doubt there would be issues in the Reading area if the up trains end up being a few minutes quicker.

[John R]

Meanwhile, the Summer 1993 timetable had an hourly service through to Swansea. Standard off-peak running time from Paddington to Cardiff was 1:58, calling at Reading, Swindon, Parkway and Newport. The Reading stop was cut out of the 16:00, 17:00, 18:00 (and an 18:25 extra). The Swindon stop was cut out of the 18:00 and 18:25. But that only reduced the running time to 1:54. Fastest of the day was the 09:25, which only stopped at Reading and took 1:48 to Cardiff. But that's hardly a worthwhile time of day (and the train was the summer-only one to Fishguard Harbour!).

But the rot had set in by then. You have to go back a further 10 and 15 years to get journey times about 15 minutes faster.

[willc]

the standard running time from Paddington to Cardiff is 2:01 on trains that continue to Swansea, but 2:06-2:08 on the Cardiffs, which shows how much timetable padding there is.

Er, that would be the time allowed for those trains to slow, stop at Didcot, and then get back up to speed.

I do love the way whenever this one rears its head, it always ends up with someone harking back to what happened 30 years ago. Yet none of you speed merchants seem willing to recognise that it was that very speed in the early years of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) that encouraged the long-distance commuting market in the first place.

On top of which policies pursued by successive governments, of whatever colour, have seen the likes of Swindon grow massively. In 1981, the population of Swindon was just under 130,000, now the town is nearing 160,000, with another 25,000 or so in the wider borough council area. Newport was about the same size as Swindon in 1981. Its population has increased by about 10,000 since then.

Trains will go where the customers are - and there are more and more of them in Swindon.
Many of them travel out of Swindon for work, other people travel into the town to work. How else do you propose that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) moves them, given the finite rolling stock resources available? Same applies to Didcot, on a smaller scale. Answers on a postcard to the FGW bunker in Swindon.

It's very easy to say just drop the stops there, they can always get on a train from somewhere else. How do they do that when the people living in somewhere else have already filled that train? And what about people who commute from Bristol Parkway to Swindon? Sorry, you'll have to go via Temple Meads now...

Maybe we could apply the same 'what happened 30 years ago' principle and ditch stops by express trains in another growing community, called Milton Keynes. After all, it didn't even have a station in 1981 (Central opened in 1982), other than the less than ideal Bletchley and Wolverton, with some InterCity calls supplementing the staple diet of Northampton line electrics.

[John R]

I do love the way whenever this one rears its head, it always ends up with someone harking back to what happened 30 years ago. Yet none of you speed merchants seem willing to recognise that it was that very speed in the early years of HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) that encouraged the long-distance commuting market in the first place.

Maybe we could apply the same 'what happened 30 years ago' principle and ditch stops by express trains in another growing community, called Milton Keynes. After all, it didn't even have a station in 1981 (Central opened in 1982), other than the less than ideal Bletchley and Wolverton, with some InterCity calls supplementing the staple diet of Northampton line electrics.

If you had a service that took 1 hr 45 to London 34 years ago then it's not unreasonable to be aggrieved that it now takes over 2 hours.

Other lines have speeded up enormously in that time. On the Midland there are trains every half hour to Leicester that do the 99 miles in 1 hr 7 or 8 mins (88mph). The West Coast has an hourly service from London to Warrington that takes 1 hr 44 mins for the 182 miles (105mph).  Yet on the Great Western trains dawdle the 118 miles to Temple Meads in 1 hr 40mins or 45 mins (71mph).

Even Hull Trains manages services to Grantham (105 miles) in 1 hour. And at least 8 trains each hour pass through Milton Keynes in exactly the way you suggest.

So whereas other services have managed a sensible mix of longer distance and commuter trains, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has ended up with a fleet of trains and services that try to meet both the demands of commuter services and longer distance services. With the result that neither market and particularly the longer distance market is satisfied with the results.

And as a commuter to Swindon I am very well aware of it's importance. But I'm not convinced every HST should stop there.