Most cancelled station stop

[whole diary]

[grandsire]

It would be interesting to know which station has the most cancelled FGW^▸ (First Great Western) train calls - over, say, a month.  Is there a way of calculating?  In the absence of a calculation I would guess either Colwall or Portsmouth Harbour might take the prize!

[grahame]

Ah ... largest NUMBER of trains, or highest PERCENTAGE of trains?  And if you have a train scheduled to run from A to C via B, and it stops short at B, do you consider that to be a cancellation at / from B?  Do you count a train that runs through without calling as a cancellation, do you cound one that's cancelled due to engineering works?

I would suspect that the dubious honour this month might go to Avonmouth, St Andrew's Road, Severn Beach, Melksham or Menheniot ... depending on criteria. It's also just possible it could be somewhere like Saltash ...

[eightf48544]

A good explanation of the problems of measuring cancelled trains.

To start probably percentage is best. If it's Ealing Broadwaywith one cancelltrain to train to Padd it makes little difference at 99%, however, if it's Melksham it's 50/100% of your service.

As to what is a cancelled train. I would say any train booked to stop at B that does not stop and pick up passengers, whatever the circumstances.

At Taplow and Burnham this would mean including any train that ran Mainline when booked Relief. We have mainline platforms at Taplow but the track is too high so trains can't stop, although I could claim grnadfather rights for HST^▸ (High Speed Train) having caught many when there's been a signal failure and they've had to stop in the platform. Before CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking) of course. 

I would exclude engineering work when I would expect alternative arrangements to be made, bus or taxi as happens at Burham and Taplow when relief lines are being worked on.

Unfortunately as I understand it to be counted as a cancelled a train, it  doesn't start from it's point of origin. I believe, perhaps someone can confirm, that  if it stops short provided it has completed a certain percantage of the journey it's NOT counted as cancelled. Similarly a train running fast thorough a station is not counted if the train completes it's journey. However it may appear in the punctuality figures.

Therefore before anyone can answer grandsire's question we need a consistent fair definition of what is cancelled train.

A i say any train that's booked to stop to pick up passengers which doesn't for any reason. Except for engineering work when alternative arrangemetns must be made.

Plus to be worked out for everystation (percentage), well we've got to keep the "bean counters" in business. This is to prevent certain stations being picked upon because they don't have so much impact on the statistics.

[grandsire]

Ah ... largest NUMBER of trains, or highest PERCENTAGE of trains?  And if you have a train scheduled to run from A to C via B, and it stops short at B, do you consider that to be a cancellation at / from B?  Do you count a train that runs through without calling as a cancellation, do you cound one that's cancelled due to engineering works?

I would suspect that the dubious honour this month might go to Avonmouth, St Andrew's Road, Severn Beach, Melksham or Menheniot ... depending on criteria. It's also just possible it could be somewhere like Saltash ...

Yes it probably does have to be percentages - I should have been more precise in my query.  There certainly seem to be some routes, or ends of routes, where cancellation occurs quite frequently in order, presumably, to get late running stock back to some semblance of "on time" for its return journey.

[grahame]

I'm thinking "percentage of departures shown in the public timetable as out from the current pocket / minitimetables on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) web site, but which did not happen" is probably a suitably presise and realistic measure.

So for Avonmouth ... a Temple Meads to Severn Beach train that's completely cancelled counts as a missed stop,  and a Temple Meads to Severn Beach that stops short at Avonmouth also counts as a missed stop.  A service from Temple Meads to Avonmouth never counts as a missed Avonmouth stop, whether or not it runs.   From Severn Beach, a service is counted as a missed stop if it fails to run at all, but it is not counted as a missed stop if it starts from Avonmouth.  I am confusing myself - hope I have written what I intended!

And I guess this needs further refinement for request stops ... where I think a stop would (?) be treated as cancelled if there wasn't th epossibility of a train stopping even if there wouldn't in fact have been a stop due to lack of passengers.

For all this horrid complexity of measuring ... this is something that I'd like to be able to quantify; it's actually easier for an intermediate station but still needs a lot of work; I can come up with a fairly accurate 26% (i.e. slighly in excess of 1 in 4 not calling) for Melksham for the first 20 days of this year, which is an improvement on the figure of over 40% for around the same period in 2007 which lead th the setting up of this site.   I would argue for a target of less that 2% ... or less than 1% where the missed stop results in there being no train on the same route / same direction for am hour after the missed stop.

[grahame]

Unfortunately as I understand it to be counted as a cancelled a train, it  doesn't start from it's point of origin. I believe, perhaps someone can confirm, that  if it stops short provided it has completed a certain percantage of the journey it's NOT counted as cancelled. Similarly a train running fast thorough a station is not counted if the train completes it's journey. However it may appear in the punctuality figures.

Following further on from this - some interesting cases that cause some interesting questions when compiling cancellation and other non-running stats ... 

The 17:02 Foregate Street to Southampton terminated at Shrub Hill one day, and one day the 17:00 Brighton to Great Malvern got as far as Hove.

The 05:19 Gloucester to Southampton ran via a different route (and non stop) to Westbury. The only scheduled station it actually ran fast through was Trowbridge, but it left out quite a few other places! Oh, yes, it did serve both Gloucester and Southampton

There ARE times when skipping stops is to be commended - where a service is so late that it's behind the following train serving the same stations, for example!

[eightf48544]

Grahame posted

From Severn Beach, a service is counted as a missed stop if it fails to run at all, but it is not counted as a missed stop if it starts from Avonmouth.  I am confusing myself - hope I have written what I intended!

Surely if it doesn't run from Severn Beach when advertised to do so it's a missed stop at Severn Beach.

I like the concept of "missed stop". It is actually quite easy to define. It's any train that's shown in the public timetable that does not stop at that station with the added refinement if it stops short then that stop plus any other booked stops count as missed stops..

Thus the 17:02 Worecester Foregate - Southampton  and 17:00 Brighton to Great Malvern would be counted as missed stops for all booked stations between Shrub Hill and Southampton, and Hove - Great Malvern inclusive.

The 05:19 Gloucester Southamton would count as 1 for Trowbridge plus all the others it missed.

I think you've got it the wrong way round with your comment.

There ARE times when skipping stops is to be commended - where a service is so late that it's behind the following train serving the same stations, for example!

Don't forget that by skipping stops you are denying passengers already on the train getting off at their chosen station.

If you allow the late following train not to call as there's a stopper ahead picking up people you don't cater for the case where if I'd wanted to get off at Trowbridge coming from Southamton I would be thrown off  at Westbury. If I were then to be told the stoppers just left and you've got an hours wait I would be very cheesed off. However, if the late train goes first and fast and I'm thrown off at Westbury to be told there's a stopper in 5/10 minutes I might not be so hacked off.

 

[grahame]

Grahame posted

From Severn Beach, a service is counted as a missed stop if it fails to run at all, but it is not counted as a missed stop if it starts from Avonmouth.  I am confusing myself - hope I have written what I intended!

Surely if it doesn't run from Severn Beach when advertised to do so it's a missed stop at Severn Beach.

Yes, it is .... I preceeded my paragraph with For Avonmouth.  So I was documenting what would be a missed stop at Avonmouth and, basically, if it picks up passengers for station X, or could have done if any had been offered, it ain't a missed stop for that station.   

So a Severn Beach to Temple Meads is missed stop at Avonmouth if it's cancelled or turns back at Clifton Down, but not missed stop at Avonmouth if it starts from Severn Beach or Avonmouth.

A Temple Meads to Severn Beach is missed stop at Avonmouth if it's cancelled, turns back at Clifton Down, or turns back at Avonmouth, but is not missed stop at Avonmouth if it carries on to Severn Beach.

I like the concept of "missed stop". It is actually quite easy to define. It's any train that's shown in the public timetable that does not stop at that station with the added refinement .

We have to be very careful not to "double count" the station where a service ends - thus my departure add on.  It means that in this example:

Thus the 17:02 Worecester Foregate - Southampton  and 17:00 Brighton to Great Malvern would be counted as missed stops for all booked stations between Shrub Hill and Southampton, and Hove - Great Malvern inclusive.

Southampton isn't counted, nor is Great Malvern (Romsey and Malvern Link are).  In all probability, Southampton WILL be counted for the returning train as it won't be there having - as I recall in the case I was thinking about - expires at Shrub Hill and been shoved into a siding there.

I think you've got it the wrong way round with your comment.

There ARE times when skipping stops is to be commended - where a service is so late that it's behind the following train serving the same stations, for example!

Don't forget that by skipping stops you are denying passengers already on the train getting off at their chosen station.

I generalised too much. I was thinking of instance such as:

Bristol to Weymouth train well over an hour late due to incoming delay (escaped puma on line at Yeovil).  Malvern to Brighton goes ahead, all stations to Westbury.  In my view, it's OK for the delayed Weymouth to skip stops to Westbury and recover at least a few minutes.

I think there are more frequent / similar instances out of Paddington; this isn't really my 'area' though as I've yet to see a train on the TransWilts line so delayed that it's overtaken by the following one.

[JayMac]

Some very interesting posts regarding what is a cancellation and how they are collated. I do not have an answer, however the chances of an 'escaped puma at Yeovil' affecting train running is so small as to be insignificant. Methinks grahame had been reminded of The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin when he made that analogy. 

[Mookiemoo]

Isnt this like when the morning hereford get a problem and they start the service at Oxford - its reported as missing stops north of there.

To the passengers north of oxford, it fecking cancelled