Who's right - NFM 05 or Journey Planners?

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

I had an interesting three way conversation about the anomaly with the DSM at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) who was on the phone to someone high up in the fares dept at Swindon.

That "someone" is my contact in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) that gave the quote(s) above....!!

He goes on to say (with permission to post this)

I accept that it would be useful to display the table of barred trains under each restriction code to which it applies, and as I said to the DSM on the phone yesterday, I will seek to do this as time permits. Traditionally such information has been contained at the beginning of each appropriate section of the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual), owing to space constraints in the printed manuals. This would remove the need to refer the user to the beginning of the section and would be beneficial to sales staff. That said, however, the table does clearly state that tickets (meaning all Off-Peak Day and Travelcards) are not valid on the listed services.

Whilst the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) CD^▸ (Capital Delivery)-ROM does provide a snapshot of most of the national fares at a point in
time, it is not perfect and does not necessarily provide full information regarding restrictions or indeed 100% accurate or complete fares data.  It is certainly not a legally binding 'document' but a slightly imperfect method of viewing the national fares database and associated files. Hence, it should be considered as a guide - which was as much as a paper National Fares Manual ever was, as almost every edition would have numerous amendments made (often unpublished), and occasionally supplements produced, before it went live.

I would have hoped that the table of barred trains does appear in the CD-ROM; TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are not asked to produce anything different for the public version, nor are we invited to comment on it before publication. As such, we would either expect it to be accurate, or carry a disclaimer. The responsibility for providing such clarification lies with the CD-ROM's producer, ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here).
 
The CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) screens and posters at Paddington provide departure information for customers, train by
train. This information is provided by FGW and categorically states which tickets are valid on which services. Peak restrictions are in force in order to manage crowding and protect revenue, so if a customer wishes to travel at peak times, they must pay the appropriate fare. Your correspondent has now made an enquiry, and been given the correct advice and information (at Paddington yesterday), so I would not expect him to attempt to travel on an Off-Peak ticket on a barred train. I trust that FGW's position is clear.

I suspect correspondence to occur between FGW and ATOC on this subject....

[inspector_blakey]

Can't help but find myself wondering what Barry Doe would make of all this... I reckon there's a Rail column in it somewhere...!

[ChrisB]

Not really - the only problem remaining being the 'missing' exclusion section on the Adventix CDRom.
The staff NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) and public Jorney Planners agree that Off-peak Day tickets are banned on peak HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).

I bet there is a disclaimer that comes with or on the CDRom stating that it isn't a definitive document and that fares / trestrictions need to be checked before purchasing tickets?....

[eightf48544]

Who is going to cut this Gordian knot.

At least you know with Ryanair that they are going to add lots of surcharges but they are probably still cheaper than other airlines, but you can still get a direct comparison of the total price . As far as I know you are still probably guarenteed a seat (if you pay the surcharge!) although not necessarily on the flight or day you want. I've not heard of any planes taking off full and standing.

It seems with rail fares even the ticket seller (be it a human being or a website)  doesn't know if they've sold you right ticket at the right price for the journey you want to make. Plus at the end of the day however much you pay unless you can reserve a seat (and then not 100%) you aren't guarenteed a seat.

Rip off Britain.

[ChrisB]

Hmmm - who knows whether you've paid the 'right' price when you book with Ryanair - they don't publish their fares anywhere - indeed, they can go up & down several times a day....!!

The TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) try & assist customers in understanding the fare structure & it xcauses more problems. Maybe they should do what Ryanair does?....there doesn't seem to be the many column inches complaining about their method of selling you a ticket.

Oh - AND Ryanair carried out a consultation late last year asking whether you would be willing to stand on their aircraft if you got a cheaper price than a seat! Seriously!

[inspector_blakey]

Plus at the end of the day however much you pay unless you can reserve a seat (and then not 100%) you aren't guarenteed a seat.

But that's the price of having a flexible, "walk up" train system and by my reckoning it's one worth paying. What would you rather...? Turn up at the booking office, buy a ticket and stand on the train you want to catch, or turn up at the booking office to be told that they can't sell you a ticket because there are no seats on any trains for the next three hours? That's the model used in the US, where virtually all Amtrak intercity trains are fully reserved (they don't allocate you a specific seat, but you are guaranteed one) and it's a massive pain in the backside - you need to reserve ages ahead of time, and the charges if you pitch up at the station and buy on the day are larcenous. I was quoted $70 (more or less GBP45) for a half-hour journey of about 40 miles a few months ago, and this was in the middle of the day on a weekend. Trust me, you don't want the "guaranteed seat" thing applied on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or any other of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company): sounds like a nice, equitable idea but the practicalities mean the current system is way better.

Airlines are an entirely different kettle of fish - safety rules there require (for obvious reasons) that everyone must have a seat and be belted into it for takeoff, landing and at other times as the captain deems appropriate. Although Ryanair did say they were in discussions with Boeing regarding the design of some kind of restraint that would allow standing passengers on their flights, I suspect like many other things (the infamous toilet charge and the suggestion that one day their flights would be completely free and pay their way by acting as mobile casinos, for example) it's just a publicity stunt. Apart from anything else, have you ever tried standing up underneath the luggage bins in a 737?!

[JayMac]

(Forwarded quote from someone high up in FGW^▸ (First Great Western) fares dept.)

"Whilst the Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) CD^▸ (Capital Delivery)-ROM does provide a snapshot of most of the national fares at a point in
time, it is not perfect and does not necessarily provide full information regarding restrictions or indeed 100% accurate or complete fares data.  It is certainly not a legally binding 'document' but a slightly imperfect method of viewing the national fares database and associated files. Hence, it should be considered as a guide - which was as much as a paper National Fares Manual ever was, as almost every edition would have numerous amendments made (often unpublished), and occasionally supplements produced, before it went live."

The someone high up is indeed right. The publically available NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) CD-Rom does have a disclaimer, about the information contained within, on the TSO^▸ (The Stationary Office (now OPSI)) website from where you can purchase it. I'm assuming that the CD is supplied with these terms and conditions. My copy of NFM 05 was garnered from another source for free. I believe it should be legitimately available for free; so have no moral dilemma in not paying for it - but that's another topic.

"3. Limitation of Liability and Indemnity
3.1. The Data is made available to the Licensee on an "as is" basis and the Licensor makes no representations or gives no warranties in relation to the Data, including but not limited to accuracy, the satisfactory quality for purpose, merchantability or any other matter associated with the Data. The Licensor expressly excludes any and all implied and statutory warranties and terms to the maximum extent permitted by law.

3.3. The Licensor's liability to the Licensee under this Licence shall be limited to the sum of the Licence Fee....."

So the best you can hope for if caught out by an anomaly is a refund of the purchase cost of the CD-Rom. That's if you purchased it in the first place.

[willc]

By way of a footnote to the issue of information about peak restrictions, there is now a leaflet available at staffed stations on the Cotswold Line explaining ticket validity into London in the morning peak and back in the afternoon.

I say explaining, because of course they come up against the nonsense of the 'simplified' ticket names, with off-peak, off-peak day and off-peak travelcard bandied around, without any attempt to point out the differences between off-peak tickets and the other sorts of off-peak tickets.

And as for why an off-peak ticket might be valid at 7.25am, the leaflet, wisely, just doesn't go there.

Still, at least they've tried, though I'm not sure it's entirely necessary, because the ticket office staff and train crews are, in my experience, always ready with their series of quick questions to ensure people get the ticket they need, at the lowest possible fare.