Who's right - NFM 05 or Journey Planners?

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Just got somebody to do some more digging. It would appear ChrisB was correct and there is a blanket ban on off peak tickets on a whole host of trains from Paddington - west of Reading in PM Peak.

[JayMac]

Yet the validity code says otherwise. Another case of anomalies in the system. However this one can result in some punitive action (full anytime single) being applied by a TM^‡(resolve) or RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)).

Must be careful, as the last time I challenged FGW^▸ (First Great Western) policy with on board staff, I was ejected at Reading. Calling FGW (not an individual staff member) 'muppets' was taken as being threatening and abusive. So being awkward and producing screencaps of NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 05 must be done with a smile......not a smug grin.

[ChrisB]

Just got somebody to do some more digging. It would appear ChrisB was correct and there is a blanket ban on off peak tickets on a whole host of trains from Paddington - west of Reading in PM Peak.

Indeed there is - and they DO appear in the NFM05 - as a list at the front of the section that contains restriction P7 and a host of other codes....I'm awaiting a screenshot which I'll try and attach to a subsequent post in this thread once I receive it.

I made the point that this NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) ought to be in the public domain & my FGW^▸ (First Great Western) contyasct agrees with me.....

[ChrisB]

Hopefully, the screenshot is attached.....I am informed that the list of restrictions that follows are....

The validity codes are then listed in order, starting with A1. Off-Peak Day and Travelcard tickets which are (in some cases) and may be (in other cases) valid from Padd or Reading and therefore subject to the list of barred trains are:

A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B7, B8, B9, BX, C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction), C2, C4, C5, C6, CY, D5, D7, D8, E1, E2, E6, E7, F4, F6, G9, GK, J9, L2, L5, L8, L9, LB, LC^▸ (Level Crossing), LD, LG, LJ, M1, M8, N4, P2, P5, P6, P7, P8, Q6, Q7, SB^▸ (Signal Box), SE, WB, WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)), WH, WI, WQ, WU, WW, WX

[grahame]

Am I the only one getting lost in all those codes?

One of our customers, several years back got an off peak return from Peterbrough to Melksham that took him (in those days) on the 17:30 from Paddington - and it was valid in spite of all the dire warnings on the departure boards at Paddington about "Off peak not being valid on this train", etc. In view of this thread, and that fact that our London clients often travel out on the 17:45 and return a few days later on the 19:47 from Melksham, I thought I would check this out via the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ticket site so that I'm well placed on current rules to give them a good priced and valid option without getting involved in split tickets:

1. Single, Paddington to Melksham on the 17:45 - 66.50.  Returning on the 19:47 - 26.00 - total price 92.50

2. Anytime return (only option offered for 17:45 departure from Paddington) - 133.00

3. Super off peak return, Peterborough to Melksham - 79.20.   Offered to me for travel on the 16:02 from Peterborough, connecting into the 17:45 from Paddington, returning on the 19:47

Is option 3. valid, or a web site error?   In a previous iteration before the rules were last changed, this enquiry resulted in inconclusive results, with some people saying "valid" and others "invalid".    As a side question, option 3. also includes the tube from King's Cross to Paddington in the package.  Is that JUST from King's Cross, or could it be used somewhat wider - e.g. from Oxford Circus to Paddington to connect with the 17:45?

[devon_metro]

It is a complete mine field. The 3rd option will be valid, as it starts outside London where in general peak time restrictions don't exist. In general, the journey planners are correct. Bignosemac is technically travelling invalidly assuming he has used said ticket combinations, but thats his own risk!

[ChrisB]

Peterborough - Melksham may be a fare set by East Coast, rather than FGW^▸ (First Great Western), and therefore it would be East Coast that set the restriction code. I can check.

I'm making further enquiries....

The inclusive tube will only work tube barriers at Kings Cross & Paddington, nowhere else, I believe.

[paul7575]

The inclusive tube will only work tube barriers at Kings Cross & Paddington, nowhere else, I believe.

The mag stripe coding isn't clever enough to do that. The cross London marker just allows you a single entry (at any one of the cross London transfer stations - there are about 40 of them I've listed below although that list is a couple of years old now) and one subsequent exit at any one of the same list.  It would be too difficult, in the general case, to cover all the valid routing options.

Aldgate, Amersham, Baker Street, Balham, Bank, Barking, Blackfriars, Blackhorse Road, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Ealing Broadway, Edgware Road, Elephant & Castle, Embankment, Euston, Euston Square, Farringdon, Finsbury Park, Greenwich, Highbury & Islington, Kensington Olympia, Kentish Town, King^s Cross/St Pancras, Lancaster Gate, Limehouse, Lewisham, Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Marylebone, Moorgate, New Cross Gate, Old Street, Paddington, Queens Park, Richmond, Seven Sisters, Southwark, Stratford, Tottenham Hale, Tower Hill, Vauxhall, Upminster, Walthamstow Ctl, Waterloo, West Brompton, West Ham, West Hampstead, Wimbledon, Victoria.

Paul

[ChrisB]

Peterborough - Melksham may be a fare set by East Coast, rather than FGW^▸ (First Great Western), and therefore it would be East Coast that set the restriction code. I can check.

OK, it's slightly more complicated than that!
All fares are indeed set by East Coast.
However -
If you orginate your journey at Melksham, FGW set the restriction (5A) and if originated at Peterborough it's set by East Coast (restriction 9U)

The difference takes effect when you hit London - travelling south with PBO as
your origin for the outward journey, you are under code 9U (see screen shot below). You are restricted by an arrival time at Kings Cross on your outward leg (at or after 1005), but may leave Paddington (still on the outward leg) on any train. On the way back you are unrestricted, either into Padd or from KGX.

For completeness, if you originate in Melksham....

If your origin is Melksham, it works in reverse, on code 5A. FGW restricts your arrival time in London on the outward leg (at or after 1140), but you may leave KGX on any train, including evening peak departures. Coming back south on the return leg, you may travel into KGX on any train but are subject to FGW's evening peak restrictions from Padd (these are the same conditions as for a Padd to Melksham Off-Peak ticket).

The Super Off-Peak Single fare is ^78.20 and Return ^79.20 in eiother direction.

Hope that all makes sense....

[ChrisB]

Further, ALL off-peak & Super off-peak DAY RETURNS are barred from those evening peak HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) listed above in the attachment, whereas some PERIOD RETURNS, like these Perterborough-Melksham fares, are permitted.

[Tim]

Would make a very interesting court case.

I would assume that the restriction on the ticket would either be "As Advertised" or "See Restrictions".  If you bought it at the station or on the train, I think (in my opinion) it would be difficult for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to argue that it isn't valid unless you were given a restriction card that explained you couldn't use it on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).

Presumably it is "advertised" on the electronic departure baords at Paddington.

[ChrisB]

yup.....

[JayMac]

Bignosemac bottled it and got the 1622 from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and changed at DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains). Would've liked an extra hour or so in that London, but didn't feel up for a debate with a TM^‡(resolve) and the risk of an excess or UFN^‡(resolve).

I had an interesting three way conversation about the anomaly with the DSM at PAD who was on the phone to someone high up in the fares dept at Swindon. The upshot was that I was advised not to travel during the peak as neither the DSM or the fares dept would give the authority. This despite them both admitting that the publically available information (NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 05 CD^▸ (Capital Delivery)-Rom and requesting a booking clerk check the restriction) was ambiguous at best (downright misleading in my opinion).

I pointed out that whilst FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff may be aware of the peak restrictions and advise accordingly, another TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) booking clerk would only see the information on their system against restriction P7 and pass on to the customer that it was alright to return to DID on any evening train with a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) or ODT. A seperate list of excluded trains, which is not referenced in the public NFM at all and is not immediately apparent to a ticket office clerk checking P7 is not good enough, even more so when the list makes no destinction between Off-Peak tickets and Travelcards which actually have different time restrictions. Off Peak 1600-1915. Travelcard 1640-1915.

I was furthur told that the error was ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)'s fault as they publish the FRPP and NFM.  What a load of horlicks! Who sets the fares for this route? Who signed off on the restriction codes on 31/12/09? Who decides the Off-Peak timings? I'll tell you who - the shysters* in FGW's fares dept.

Remember all TOC's priorities. 1st - Franchise Payments. 2nd - Shareholders. 3rd - Performance Targets. 4th - Industrial relations. And a lowly 5th - The Passengers.

I remember what brought me to this forum. Being overcharged on the SVB line - that was an error in FGW's favour that took 10 weeks to fix. I bet the 'P7' anomaly will be sorted a darn sight quicker by the fares shysters*; can't have the passengers saving a few bob at FGW's expense. That just won't do.

*Tame version of the names I'm calling them in my head.

(EDIT: Just for completeness sake I should add that I actually travelled back from PAD-DID-BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) on a single journey split. A late change of plans meant I took a bash to London on a very convoluted route, so I actually travelled PAD-DID on a CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) with validity code J9. This code is just as bad as P7, no mention of far west HST^▸ (High Speed Train) restrictions in the peak either)

[Ollie]

I was furthur told that the error was ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here)'s fault as they publish the FRPP and NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual).  What a load of horlicks! Who sets the fares for this route? Who signed off on the restriction codes on 31/12/09? Who decides the Off-Peak timings? I'll tell you who - the shysters* in FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s fares dept.

FRPP (Now known as "The Manual") has bits assigned to TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s to keep updated, so it's very difficult to blame ATOC for the issue with restriction codes. See attached screenshot.

[ChrisB]

Presumably it is "advertised" on the electronic departure baords at Paddington.

And on posters around Paddington....