Who's right - NFM 05 or Journey Planners?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Making a day trip to London tomorrow and instead of my usual money saving route via Salisbury, I'm going quick way splitting at Didcot.

Now the problem I've discovered is Journey Planners show the DID^▸ (Didcot Parkway)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) Off Peak Day return (CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) and One Day Travelcard (ODT) as not being valid for return from PAD on 'fast' services during the evening peak. Yet NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 05 says return is permitted on any train, for these ticket types.

Which is right? And should I board a 'fast' at PAD armed with a print out of the NFM 05 entries and hope for a flummoxed TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context)?

[ChrisB]

No, the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) is wrong.....HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) have been banned to those tickets for ages.

You can use the semi-fast Oxfords, if they stop at Didcot, but that's it. You're on a turbo otherwise.

[JayMac]

Looked right back through to NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 02. And all show the same. If it's wrong, why has it been wrong for so long?

A ticket office clerk consulting the NFM would tell me what, if I asked for an explanation of restriction code P7?

[ChrisB]

Enquiries are already in hand.....

[Tim]

No, the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) is wrong.....HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) have been banned to those tickets for ages.

How can the NFM be wrong?  I thought that the NFM was the authorative source of information (it is therfore right by definition is it not?).  If other information contradicts then that other information must be wrong. 

[ChrisB]

That's the way I see it - but let's get admission of the fact. Otherwise you get a ton of unnecessary hassle.....

However, I've just picked up that you're travelling tomorrow, bignosemac, and I'm not sure I'll get you a response by then....

Good Luck, you may need it. Just insist on the train manager fetching his copy of the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) and take him through it, if necessary.

[ChrisB]

Further,. I thought the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) was what was loaded into the (NRE^▸ (National Rail Enquiries)) journeyplanner - so they ought to be aligned anyway?....

[JayMac]

That's the way I see it - but let's get admission of the fact. Otherwise you get a ton of unnecessary hassle.....

However, I've just picked up that you're travelling tomorrow, bignosemac, and I'm not sure I'll get you a response by then....

Good Luck, you may need it. Just insist on the train manager fetching his copy of the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) and take him through it, if necessary.

Well I'm tempted to take a 'stopper' to Didcot, then change, just for an easy life. However I would prefer to get a direct train to Temple Meads (calling at DID^▸ (Didcot Parkway), as it's my split point).

Not sure insisting the TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context) fetches his copy of NFM will work. Don't think paper copies are issued any more. But I'm hopeful that the restriction information in Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machines tallies with NFM 05 and not online journey planners. May check on my outbound journey if one of the many friendly Conductors I know are working the SVB line.

[ChrisB]

The reason I suggested requesting the TM^▸ (Train Manager, or possibly Ticket Machine, depending on context) to check the NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) is that it is hammered into TMs that CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) & ODTs are NOT valid on peak HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) - so they need to have that challenged.....

[devon_metro]

According to a set of restrictions I have been given taken from the Online Staff fares manual:

Validity
Code

P7
   

Restriction Applies:
   

Monday to Friday only.

No travel restrictions on other days.

Outward Travel
   
By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000.

Return Travel   

By any train.

[JayMac]

Thanks d_m I was gonna ask someone out there with access to see what FRPP said. If 'The official source of retail information for the rail industry' says that for code P7 then I should be OK.

Could be up for some fun and games........although I suspect I'm unlikely to even be ticket checked before DID^▸ (Didcot Parkway) on a peak HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) to the west.

[eightf48544]

Would make a very interesting court case.

But if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) say their P7 restriction is peak fast trains aren't they trying it on? A little bit underhand perhaps?

[Brucey]

Would make a very interesting court case.

I would assume that the restriction on the ticket would either be "As Advertised" or "See Restrictions".  If you bought it at the station or on the train, I think (in my opinion) it would be difficult for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to argue that it isn't valid unless you were given a restriction card that explained you couldn't use it on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)).

[devon_metro]

I'm still not sure whether it is valid, I know there are blanket bans on services out of Paddington & Reading in the evening peak, however i'm struggling to find it on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) website.

[eightf48544]

Perhaps FGW^▸ (First Great Western) should have this little snipit found on Wikepedia regarding the fraud act.

^"Fraud by false representation" is defined by Section 2 of the Act as a case where a person makes "any representation as to fact or law ... express or implied" which they know to be untrue or misleading.

Plus in case they argue that's what they've been told.

Section 12 of the Act provides that where an offence against the Act was committed by a body corporate, but was carried out with the "consent or connivance" of any director, manager, secretary or officer of the body - or any person purporting to be such - then that person, as well as the body itself, is liable.

An important difference between this and the Theft Act is that the Fraud Act offences do not require there to have been a victim, as was the case with the Theft Act.

But it still doesn't answer why it's not in NFM^▸ (National Fares Manual) 5.