Refurbished Mk 3 Carriages for Marylebone - Oxford service

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Errr - there aren't any Wycombe stops in 'fast' Birminghams as they're 'fast' to Bicester North off-peak, and Banbury in the peak.

[IndustryInsider]

Errr - there aren't any Wycombe stops in 'fast' Birminghams as they're 'fast' to Bicester North off-peak, and Banbury in the peak.

I think what he meant was that, generally speaking, currently, one of the two Clubman services per hour stop at High Wycombe (the ones that take a whopping 10 minutes longer than the ones that skip Wycombe).

Currently 13 of the through London to Birmingham trains do stop at Wycombe, and 18 miss it out.  The ones that miss it out often have some sort of connection at Bicester North from Wycombe (and places like Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield). 

With the proposed Phase 2 of Evergreen 3 this changes to 28 not stopping and only 3 stopping, all at the extremities of the day.  Crucially the connections at Bicester are virtually eliminated too as the phase 2 trains will stop at Bicester Town, not Bicester North, and more of the Birmingham trains fly straight through Bicester too.

That gives more flesh on my argument as to why one of the two Birmingham trains per hour should call at High Wycombe from Phase 2.

[ChrisB]

Errr - there aren't any Wycombe stops in 'fast' Birminghams as they're 'fast' to Bicester North off-peak, and Banbury in the peak.

I think what he meant was that, generally speaking, currently, one of the two Clubman services per hour stop at High Wycombe (the ones that take a whopping 10 minutes longer than the ones that skip Wycombe).

So you're saying he meant the 'slow' Birmingham trains then, and not the fast?!

Currently 13 of the through London to Birmingham trains do stop at Wycombe, and 18 miss it out.  The ones that miss it out often have some sort of connection at Bicester North from Wycombe (and places like Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield). 

With the proposed Phase 2 of Evergreen 3 this changes to 28 not stopping and only 3 stopping, all at the extremities of the day.  Crucially the connections at Bicester are virtually eliminated too as the phase 2 trains will stop at Bicester Town, not Bicester North, and more of the Birmingham trains fly straight through Bicester too.

That's my worry too - that in the off-peak, Bicester North will become a ghost station, with very little of any use actually stopping there (maybe an hourly terminator, but nothing actually going anywhere beyond, except the 5-a-day Stratfords?) - and the vast majority of trains serving Bicester Town....

I'm not sure I'm with you on any Birmingham's stopping at Wycombe - but a conectional service is definitely required twice an hour somewhere - and Bicester or Banbury would be a sensible change, with turnback facilities.

[IndustryInsider]

So you're saying he meant the 'slow' Birmingham trains then, and not the fast?!

I guess I'm saying that there really isn't a fast or a slow service, perhaps two semi-fast's one of which is 10 minutes (or 7%) slower.

That's my worry too - that in the off-peak, Bicester North will become a ghost station, with very little of any use actually stopping there (maybe an hourly terminator, but nothing actually going anywhere beyond, except the 5-a-day Stratfords?) - and the vast majority of trains serving Bicester Town....

I'm not sure I'm with you on any Birmingham's stopping at Wycombe - but a conectional service is definitely required twice an hour somewhere - and Bicester or Banbury would be a sensible change, with turnback facilities.

Yes, either of those would be acceptable, achievable* on an hourly basis with either the xx:36 service to Bicester being extended to Banbury, or swapping the xx:06 Aylesbury and xx:36 Bicester/Stratford services around, or (possibly the easiest) stopping the xx:00 service from London at Bicester rather than the xx:30. Though to achieve that on a twice hourly basis would involve much more of a re-cast.

* Based on the proposed Phase 2 timetable, which I know was only a proposal and is subject to significant change.

[ChrisB]

So you're saying he meant the 'slow' Birmingham trains then, and not the fast?!

I guess I'm saying that there really isn't a fast or a slow service, perhaps two semi-fast's one of which is 10 minutes (or 7%) slower.

Actually, there's generally a 15 minute difference - 1h59 as opposed to 2h14.....
To differentiate between the two, they *are* generally referred to as the 'fast' and 'slow(er)' trains, even by Chiltern themselves!

[IndustryInsider]

So you're saying he meant the 'slow' Birmingham trains then, and not the fast?!

I guess I'm saying that there really isn't a fast or a slow service, perhaps two semi-fast's one of which is 10 minutes (or 7%) slower.

Actually, there's generally a 15 minute difference - 1h59 as opposed to 2h14.....
To differentiate between the two, they *are* generally referred to as the 'fast' and 'slow(er)' trains, even by Chiltern themselves!

Your comparing Moor Street, I'm comparing Snow Hill - though I'll concede it's usually 11 minutes - though as little as 6 minutes if you're comparing the 10:50 and 11:24! I guess Moor Street suits your argument and Snow Hill suits mine...    The important thing is we both agree (as does virtually everybody I've spoken to) that Phase 2 needs better connections from some of the intermediate stations.

[eightf48544]

Sorry for stirring up the definitions, What I should have said is through trains from Wycombe to Birmingham.

Which as Chris B says drop from 13 to 3.

There are already begginning to be mumblings of discontent from the Wycombe area as the news leaks out. Beconsfield could also lose out I've travelled on several occasions on a train at about 7:30 changed at Wycombe and got to Birmingaham before a meeting at 10:00.

Also agree that Bicester Town could lose out badly becoming like Bedwyn in that you can only go one way South and not North.

[ChrisB]

Your comparing Moor Street, I'm comparing Snow Hill

The reason I picked Moor Street is to lose all the added 'recovery minutes' that Chiltern always add in to the last stop on their trains....makes comparison more realistic!

[ChrisB]

Which as Chris B says drop from 13 to 3.

That was IndustryInsider!

Also agree that Bicester Town could lose out badly becoming like Bedwyn in that you can only go one way South and not North.

I said Bicester *North* will be losing out....

[eightf48544]

Opps meant North.

Although come to think of it at Town you will only be able to go West and not directly East to Bletchley!

However, even my typos still can't desguise the fact that intermediate stations like Beconsfield, Wycombe and Bicester North will lose out to Birmingham with the new timetable under Evergreen 3 and the push for faster London Birmingham times to compete with Virgin.

As I say rumblings are starting in the area.

[ChrisB]

Good - they need to.....

[paul7575]

As I say rumblings are starting in the area.

That'll probably be the tunnel boring machines for the new Bicester Underground.    Frequent high speed connections between the two stations...



Paul

[IndustryInsider]

Your comparing Moor Street, I'm comparing Snow Hill

The reason I picked Moor Street is to lose all the added 'recovery minutes' that Chiltern always add in to the last stop on their trains....makes comparison more realistic!

Fair enough. Bit odd as it highlights that although both faster and slower trains go through to Snow Hill (for the moment) the faster ones generally have 11 minutes allowed from Moor Street to Snow Hill and the slower trains only 8. Can't think of any reason for the discrepancy - are the faster ones worse timekeepers or is there some kind of platform issue at Snow Hill?

The phase 3 timetable allows just four minutes for the trip for those that would continue to go through to Snow Hill - probably based on the working timetable and much more like the actual journey time!

[willc]

If anyone is interested, there is an article in the December issue of Modern Railways describing Wabtec's work on a prototype for a plug sliding door for Chiltern's Mk3s. Involves pretty extensive work, with a wide door, and the door lock system taking over part of the toilet area but Chiltern plan to redesign the vestibules anyway and have only one toilet per coach, so fitting everything in is not seen as a problem. System is going to be marketed to anyone looking to do life-extension of Mk3s

[ChrisB]

Press release on Chilterns website. Mainline delayed until September.