'Rail fares puzzle', from the Telegraph's columnist Gill Charlton (15/01/2010)

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From The Telegraph:

On December 6, we looked on First Great Western's website and saw that the cheapest advertised first-class fare from London to Penzance on February 2 was ^126 per person ^ even with the senior railcard discount. This was too expensive for us, so we bought standard-class tickets for ^60.90. Next day I was furious to see that the website price had fallen to ^44.90 for a first-class single and ^19.80 for a standard ticket. I thought that the earlier you booked, the cheaper the fare, so this didn't seem right.

I contacted First Great Western's customer services department, which initially said that someone must have returned their tickets so they could be offered at a cheaper price.

I wasn't happy with this explanation, so I inquired again. This time I was told that it could have been a fault on the website and that the website was run by a separate company to First Great Western so the company couldn't explain. I know the sum involved is quite small, but I want a proper explanation so I can avoid this happening to us again.
Hilary Gillard, London


Gill Charlton replies
First Great Western was a bit stumped by your experience, because once a particular service goes on sale no class of ticket should fall further in price. However, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) does admit that occasional reductions are made under promotions or fare changes.

I think that what probably happened was that the usual selection of discounted fares had not yet been loaded on to the website, so only the standard unrestricted advance fares were available on the day you booked.

First Great Western recognises that it could have done better and is sending you two first-class tickets and a letter of apology for the inconvenience caused.

[JayMac]

Looks like someone caught between booking horizons and the date on which the January fare increases are uploaded to the system. Whilst also, apparently, using a third party (non FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) website. If things like this catch someone like me out, with my nerdish investigation of fares, what hope the occasional traveller? Must remember to look at fares across an increase due date in future, so I can write a letter to the Torygraph and get two free first class tickets from FGW.

[eightf48544]

Todays Gurniad has a piece on rail fares in the Money section.

Right  the end mentions "splitting".

Until we have a rational fares structure this kind of thing is going to run and run.

In the end it's going to put people off rail travel if it's not easy to to get the best fare for the journey one wishes to make.

At least with Ryanair you know you're going to be taken for a ride with extra charges.

[paul7575]

Last night's BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) South Today did one of those expos^s of the way commuters pay different 'walkup' fares depending on route, the old 38p a mile from Brighton to London, 42p from Southampton, 48p from Reading, 43p on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to Birmingham sort of scam.

Based on 'the walk up ticket you'd have to buy if you went to the station at 0800 this morning' (Friday).  The next phase of this standard story that they run on quiet news days is to interview the local 'commuter representative' about these amazing fares. Of course a real Southampton commuter doesn't pay 42p a mile, because at the very least his 7 day season costs less than two Anytime tickets, so that's about 17p a mile and quite a bargain...

Paul

[moonrakerz]

Until we have a rational fares structure this kind of thing is going to run and run.

In the end it's going to put people off rail travel if it's not easy to to get the best fare for the journey one wishes to make.

At least with Ryanair you know you're going to be taken for a ride with extra charges.

The problem is; what is a rational fares structure ? x pence per mile for everyone,  y pence if you travel after 10 am, z pence if you book 3 weeks in advance - that is starting to sound a bit irrational already.

What is the "best fare" ? ^10 return ?, ^5 return ?, is that travelling after 10 am or booking three weeks in advance ?

The present "structure" has evolved over the years and is a mixture of the good, the bad and the indifferent. If we get rid of the bad, that probably will remove the good - we are left with nothing but the indifferent, is that what we want ?

Railcards surely are irrational ? Why should Miss Smith get 33% off just because she is 22 years old ?  Why should her sister get 33% off if she takes her two kids with her ? Why should Mrs Smith senior get 33% off because she wears a hearing aid ?  Bizarre ! Let's get rid of them, that is rational, surely. !

If the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) knows that its trains between 10am and  4 pm, and after 7 pm are running almost empty why shouldn't they sell off seats at "silly" prices, they will be totally empty if they are forced to charge more to get to a "rationalised" fare structure; then what follows ? - reductions in service.
This means less revenue, which means that prices for those that are left and who pay the highest prices at the moment, will rise !

The present fares system is complex, because of the way it has grown to meet the needs (in the main !) of the passenger. I fear that the Law of Unintended Consequences will mean that wholesale "rationalisation" of fares will just mean an increase in fares.

The TOCs are always being portrayed as evil money-grasping entities but they do have enough sense to realise that if fares rise TOO much they will lose custom AND money.

Despite what the commuter interviewed for the evening news says - nobody HAS to travel by train ! 

[Deltic]

Railcards surely are irrational ?

I disagree with you about railcards, moonrakerz.  They are based on the principle that different people are willing / able to pay different amounts for the same thing.  There are a certain number of people willing and able to pay full fare for a journey but, off peak, these are not enough.  So you maximise the revenue for the fixed cost of running the train by allowing members of relatively low income groups (e.g. students, old age pensioners, disabled people) to travel at a discount.  Without the discount many of them wouldn't travel by train, there would be more trains carting round fresh air (or not running at all) and there would be less revenue for the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company).  The Family & Friends railcard allows the train to compete with the car by reducing the cost of a  group of people travelling together, where the total fare would otherwise be uncompetitive. 

Railcards have been a success and the rules governing their usage are relatively straightforward.  What is irrational is that you can get cheaper fares for the same journey by splitting it at certain points as opposed to a through booking.

[moonrakerz]

Railcards surely are irrational ?

I disagree with you about railcards, moonrakerz. 

My statement was a purely rhetorical question, hence the ?

I totally agree that they generate revenue that may not be there originally - BUT, that is exactly the reason that many/most of the anomalies have come into being as well.

I often use the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) Temple Meads to Waterloo service.  An Advance single from Waterloo to Warminster is ^6.60 (on MY railcard !) a single to Salisbury is ^20.45/21.45 (Super off peak/Anytime - NO advance fares on this route).
Let's do away with the anomaly and charge (say) 25p a mile:
Salisbury stays the same at ^21, Warminster rises to ^26. This service is very useful for people on the line from Bath to Warminster for people going to London - most of those people book in advance - most of those people would not pay four times as much for their ticket ! There is very little "business" traffic on this route, just a little local traffic, the almost certain outcome would be the removal of this service.

The anomaly of splitting fares probably has an equally similar starting point. Steady traffic on a route from A to C, via B. Operator believes he can generate extra traffic/revenue by offering "cheap" fares from  B to C. Splitting becomes cheaper for those "in the know" - you can't really blame the operator for not telling the regulars travelling from A to C !!

I wonder at times whether the cry to "simplify/rationalise" the fares structure is brought about by:
1. Not really understanding how/why the system is like it is
OR
2. Saying "if I can't get that cheap fare - why should anybody else?"

 

[plymothian]

Railcards surely are irrational ?

I disagree with you about railcards, moonrakerz.  They are based on the principle that different people are willing / able to pay different amounts for the same thing.  There are a certain number of people willing and able to pay full fare for a journey but, off peak, these are not enough.  So you maximise the revenue for the fixed cost of running the train by allowing members of relatively low income groups (e.g. students, old age pensioners, disabled people) to travel at a discount.  Without the discount many of them wouldn't travel by train, there would be more trains carting round fresh air (or not running at all) and there would be less revenue for the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company).  The Family & Friends railcard allows the train to compete with the car by reducing the cost of a  group of people travelling together, where the total fare would otherwise be uncompetitive. 

Railcards have been a success and the rules governing their usage are relatively straightforward.  What is irrational is that you can get cheaper fares for the same journey by splitting it at certain points as opposed to a through booking.

What I find most irrational is why someone living in the South East (approximate) can get him self AND 4 others discounted on a Network Railcard.

[paul7575]

The Network South East card was an attempt to fill primarily commuter services in the offpeak. Hence the 1000 start time on weekdays.  I have no facts to hand, but many people believe that normal fares in the former NSE^▸ (Network South East) area are generally higher than those in the rest of the country, and that's why such a card was never made available nationally.

Paul

[ChrisB]

many people believe that normal fares in the former NSE^▸ (Network South East) area are generally higher than those in the rest of the country

Too right!!!

[Mookiemoo]

My problem with railcards is that they are not consistent.

e.g. You can get an OAP/disabled and I believe family discount on walk up first class fares but not a student one?  Surely this almost begs the "we don't want dirty students in FC^‡(resolve)" accusation.

Of course, its this logic that I suspect means the advantix machines have their little loophole. 

A rail card should be valid for a discount off all fares subject to a minimum price and excluding season tickets.

[thetrout]

My problem with railcards is that they are not consistent.

e.g. You can get an OAP/disabled and I believe family discount on walk up first class fares but not a student one?  Surely this almost begs the "we don't want dirty students in FC^‡(resolve)" accusation.

Of course, its this logic that I suspect means the advantix machines have their little loophole. 

A rail card should be valid for a discount off all fares subject to a minimum price and excluding season tickets.

You can get a FC discount on a student railcard, but AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) it's only on First Off Peak Day Returns and First Advance... I believe Family and Friends Railcard is the same thing (open to correction)... But I do agree that Student and Family and Friends railcards should be entitled to the FC discount at the very least on weekends/bank holidays...


Having said that, one thing I did notice as a Disabled Railcard holder is that it is cheaper when buying tickets is that the discount the railcard gives over a month is sometimes cheaper than the equivalent monthly season ticket...!

[Mookiemoo]

My problem with railcards is that they are not consistent.

e.g. You can get an OAP/disabled and I believe family discount on walk up first class fares but not a student one?  Surely this almost begs the "we don't want dirty students in FC^‡(resolve)" accusation.

Of course, its this logic that I suspect means the advantix machines have their little loophole. 

A rail card should be valid for a discount off all fares subject to a minimum price and excluding season tickets.

You can get a FC discount on a student railcard, but AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) it's only on First Off Peak Day Returns and First Advance... I believe Family and Friends Railcard is the same thing (open to correction)... But I do agree that Student and Family and Friends railcards should be entitled to the FC discount at the very least on weekends/bank holidays...


Having said that, one thing I did notice as a Disabled Railcard holder is that it is cheaper when buying tickets is that the discount the railcard gives over a month is sometimes cheaper than the equivalent monthly season ticket...!

For me, it works out break even if I do four days a week - which is why I have no compunction using it to get a  discount :-)  If I didnt I'd only pay the same for a season but I do get the slightly better flexibility.

[paul7575]

You can get a FC^‡(resolve) discount on a student railcard, but AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) it's only on First Off Peak Day Returns and First Advance... I believe Family and Friends Railcard is the same thing (open to correction)...

Weekend First and First Advance are the only fares eligible for 16-25 railcard discount, according to the railcard website.

I'm sure FA knows she isn't entitled to discounts on weekday walk up fares, it just surprises me she keeps advertising it on here...

Paul

[Mookiemoo]

You can get a FC^‡(resolve) discount on a student railcard, but AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) it's only on First Off Peak Day Returns and First Advance... I believe Family and Friends Railcard is the same thing (open to correction)...

Weekend First and First Advance are the only fares eligible for 16-25 railcard discount, according to the railcard website.

I'm sure FA knows she isn't entitled to discounts on weekday walk up fares, it just surprises me she keeps advertising it on here...

Paul

And you know why I do it?

1. Because I think its not right that pensioners get the discount but students dont

2. 95% of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff know its not valid but if the machine says ok - then its ok - I make sure I point it out but they still sell it .............. I know Graham wont like this but if it came to court on the basis of the above, I'll take my day

3. If they close the looop hole great - let them , then I'll pay up - just like when they brought in IR35 (google it) I paid an accountant rather than DIY - I'm no worse off............