HST-Dft proposes life extension!

[whole diary]

[TheLastMinute]

Exactly Blakey.

There was a nasty incident back in February 2008 on the Nene Valley Railway when a 2 year old child fell from moving ex-Danish carriage that had internal handles. The fall gave the child some cuts and bruises but thankfully nothing more serious. The RAIB^▸ (Rail Accident Investigation Branch) report concluded that it was most likely the child used the handles to pull themselves up from sitting on the floor and thereby opening the door.

A vivid example as to why internal handles on trains are bad.

TLM

[Tim]

BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) did fit some mark I stock (both loco-hauled and EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)) with internal door handles but these are a completely different design from the outside handles and so stiff (to reduce the chances of accidental door opening) that you need pretty stong fingers to open them. The net result is that most people ended up using the outside handles anyway and I think, although I'm open to correction, that the locks with internal handles were ultimately replaced. Bear in mind that these vehucles never had CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking).

Some of the old EMU's that worked on the Glossop branch when I was young had these stiff internal handles.  A later batch of similar stock then arrived with what looked like the same locks but with the internal handle (which was never a proper handle to turn, more a very stiff slider) plated over.  My habbit was to use the external handle always.

[Electric train]

The Mk1 (classic) DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) had an internal door handle.  I don't recall the Mk2^▸ (Mark 2 coach) main line stock having internal handles but the did have the classic T external handles and the windows did drop right down the biggest complaints when the HSDT^▸ (Original name for High Speed Train) Mk3's came in were the conventional L shaped handle which has to be push right down to get past the safety catch and the fact that the windows don't drop right down.

[Btline]

The Mk1 (classic) DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) had an internal door handle.  I don't recall the Mk2^▸ (Mark 2 coach) main line stock having internal handles but the did have the classic T external handles and the windows did drop right down the biggest complaints when the HSDT^▸ (Original name for High Speed Train) Mk3's came in were the conventional L shaped handle which has to be push right down to get past the safety catch and the fact that the windows don't drop right down.

The worst doors to "get used to" are old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) doors, where slamming them doesn't lock them. You push them to, and then turn the T handle to vertical. The number of times I've seen people slamming and slamming GWR doors on preserved lines, only to be told by staff "they're Grea' Westerrrnn doorrrrs! You 'av t' turn handle after-t closing!!"

I have to say, the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) doors are a pain to open sometimes!

[onthecushions]

.....and of course the late lamented CIG's and VEP's of the Southern had side moving inside door handles.

The doors were generally open at 3mph with 10-15% customers off before dead stand. That way they could handle a 30s station stop with a 12 car set and 1 guard. Passengers shut the doors also.

I've noticed French train crews opening sliding/swing doors after start/ before stand.

The Sydney harbour ferries had a habit of passing close to but not mooring at jetties. The Aussie office girls were very impressive in being able to jump across from a moving vessel (in rough water) and in tight skirts and heels...

Happy h&s new year,

OTC

[John R]

The Sydney harbour ferries had a habit of passing close to but not mooring at jetties. The Aussie office girls were very impressive in being able to jump across from a moving vessel (in rough water) and in tight skirts and heels...

Not that you were looking of course. 

[devon_metro]

.....and of course the late lamented CIG's and VEP's of the Southern had side moving inside door handles.

The doors were generally open at 3mph with 10-15% customers off before dead stand. That way they could handle a 30s station stop with a 12 car set and 1 guard. Passengers shut the doors also.

I've noticed French train crews opening sliding/swing doors after start/ before stand.

The Sydney harbour ferries had a habit of passing close to but not mooring at jetties. The Aussie office girls were very impressive in being able to jump across from a moving vessel (in rough water) and in tight skirts and heels...

Happy h&s new year,

OTC

Didn't think CIGs had internal doors, or is that a retro fit to the Lymington examples?

[DanielP]

I think that Mk2s^▸ (Mark 2 coach) were drop down windows with door handles on the outside only.

I also remember those funny internal door handles on the Southern Electrics- it was nice to be able to get out of a train without too much kerfuffle.

In Italy, the door interlocking in UIC-Z stock turns off below 3mph automatically so that you can open the doors before the train stops (you can hear it click like on the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train))- this even occurs at signals! This is why you often hear of mass passenger revolts in Italy when trains get held up for ages- this is because they can get out and form an unruly mob if necessary! I can't really image UK^▸ (United Kingdom) passengers being trusted with a system like this!

As for refitting the HSTs, the latest Virgin and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) refits are far from shabby and show that the good old Mk3 is still good for frontline. I particularly think the idea of ditching one toilet per coach on the Virgin refits was a good idea. However- I thought that corrosion was going to be a terminal problem soon. They are surely going to need a major refit, which will be expensive and trigger all the DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) regulations etc.

It's a shame that noone can get all those spare MK3 coaches (including the Irish ones), DVTs^‡(resolve) and Class 90s / 67s togther to solve medium term problems- obviously, a certain degree of refitting would be necessary, but at least we wouldn't be fighting over 150s! Any other country in Europe would have managed to get something together. Don't forget that all those aircon Mk2s are happily trudling around New Zealand in various states of refitment- why can't we manage something like that here?

Daniel

[Henry]

 Slightly off subject, but all this talk of Southern region reminded me of my days working in London.

 Commuting Hampshire to Waterloo, opening the doors and half way down the concourse before the train had even stopped.
 Dodging the Royal Mail, Evening Standard vans who took no prisoners and finally boarding a Routemaster bus still
 doing 5-10 m.p.h.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

I been to NZ and see the Nk2 Coach several years ago. They done a good job

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NZR_British_Rail_Mark_2_carriage

The Capital Connection and Wairarapa Coaches Look nice

Wairarapa Coaches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Metlink_SW_3945_at_Masterton_Station.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DCP4818_and_SW_set_at_Carterton_station_with_Waiararapa_Connection.jpg

Guy

Guy

[hornbeam]

The HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is in my option the best thing ever built by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)). However, the one thing that concerns me is capacity. If they are kept longer, how will they cope when passenger numbers go up in the future? One would hope if they are replaced by electrics that they would buy extra units/ or they would be longer. Also if they do up-rate the power cars and fit pug doors this will speed things up but not by much. The whole point of the Reading rebuild is to increase capacity but at this rate there won^t be any extra paths used as there won^t be enough stock!

[paul7575]

Capacity is behind all the proposals, and often (ISTM) forgotten about in the discussions. For instance on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), there is a view that the 10 car all-electric IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) isn't needed as the Mk4/91 sets are fine as they are. 

But the capacity uplift per train is 25% AFAICT^▸ (as far as I can tell).  Based purely on length of train it's 207m (9x23m Mk4) vs 260m (10x26m IEP) - and that's before they rejig the proportions of first/standard, bin the restaurant car, fit thinner seats etc etc.  I'd be surprised if there wasn't to be a 30% increase in seats on that basis.

Paul

[FarWestJohn]

Forgive me if this has already been reported but I have been away.

The current Railway Gazette has an interesting write up on HST^▸ (High Speed Train) extension until 2035:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/industry-technology/single-view/view/hsts-are-good-to-2035.html

Part:
With life-extension likely, it was decided to apply Finite Element Analysis to the Mk III bodyshell, to determine the fatigue life and identify weak points. Forces were measured using an instrumented FGW^▸ (First Great Western) vehicle and fed into the model, which was run for 60 years.

The work showed that the Mk III body structure is 'a lot better than expected' and can run safely to at least 2035. The modelling had a built-in margin of error, because present-day loads are greater than in the past and the HSTs are operated more intensively.

Only four weld locations were identified as potential problem areas, and these will be monitored during future overhauls. Crack propa^gation analysis was also carried out.

[The SprinterMeister]

If they electrify the Line to Plymouth they could use some of the 225.

Can some one tell me why you could not use the MK4 coach with Class 43.

Guy

The ETS^▸ (Electric Train Supply) systems and multiple working are not compatible. 91's and MK4 / DVT^‡(resolve)'s use TDM (Time division multiplex) for the multi control and standard LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) ETS systems. Even when the loco is leading the set the E70 (brake pipe pressure control unit) on the trailing DVT is controlled via the TDM from the locomotive at the front end.

HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s use 415 volt 50Hz AC three phase ETS and have their own bespoke 36 way multi system running the length of the train so that the power cars can work in multi with each other.

A single class 43 power car on its own would struggle pushing and pulling a full Mk4 set plus DVT over the Devon Banks anyway....   

[The SprinterMeister]

Build new HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?

Far too many safety regulations since the mid-70's to make that worth considering. You might as well start out from scratch than try and make a 40 year old design meet modern safety standards. By all means keep the same principal of the design though, i.e. engines separated from carriages.

Which seems to me a far better option than the Japanese Voyager clone with pantograph option which seems to be the current line of thinking. In fact further life extention / upgrading of the HST fleet and forgetting the electrification (until such time something half decent can be found to run under the wires) would probably provide a better product for the passengers....