HST-Dft proposes life extension!

[whole diary]

[Super Guard]

I believe (but will be happy to be corrected!) that structurally the MK3 coaches are fine to a certain extent so just a load more would need to be made, perhaps with automatic doors (or at the very least, doors which can be opened from the inside! As an aside, I've noticed many times that there is a metal plate screwed on to the doors on the insides where the handle is; why can't they put handles on the inside as well as the outside?)

If you ever try to open a locked HST^▸ (High Speed Train) door from the outside, you can potentially leave it "on the catch", where the door is locked, but slightly open (not as dramatic as i'm putting it), but it's a safety risk all the same, hence why a TM^‡(resolve) should visually check every door to ensure it is fully closed and why dispatchers will stop a departing train if they see a door 'on the catch'.  Now in this day and age of the Nanny State and some members of the public lacking in common sense, it was probably a requirement to remove the internal handles.

[JayMac]

Does the central locking activate if a door is on the catch? Does the TM^‡(resolve) have an indication on a door panel to show central locking activation? Forgive me if I'm being na^ve, but if there is an indication and the train moves off with a door 'on the catch' then the fault lies with the TM for mistakenly giving 'two' to the driver.

[John R]

Yes, the Central Locking does activate even with a door on the catch otherwise the TM^‡(resolve) would have a fail safe way of checking.

You could criticise that, but remember the installation as is was very costly but has (on the evidence to date) completely removed the risk of doors opening and people falling out. In hindsight, one of the most cost effective safety improvements in terms of lives saved.

[JayMac]

Thanks JohnR. Apologies to any TM^‡(resolve)'s out there for my assumptions.

[caliwag]

Well you're wrong. I have been on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from KX to Newcastle that left Peterboro with (luckily) a trailing door open. I set off to the buffet from First and the train was battering along at 90+.
I just slammed it shut, but quizzed the SC who said...Aye it happens sometimes, thanks for closing it...GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) days...

[Chris from Nailsea]

In the past, we have had a very educational discussion on the subject of opening HST^▸ (High Speed Train) doors from inside the carriage: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1490.msg9638#msg9638 

[John R]

Well you're wrong. I have been on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from KX to Newcastle that left Peterboro with (luckily) a trailing door open. I set off to the buffet from First and the train was battering along at 90+.
I just slammed it shut, but quizzed the SC who said...Aye it happens sometimes, thanks for closing it...GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) days...

Sorry, who's "you're" in you're wrong?

If it were me then my comment was meant to say that doors can remain on the catch with the CL activated, and thus the TM^‡(resolve) can indeed despatch a train in a potentially unsafe state. Though the number of fatalities from people falling from trains has fallen to nil over several years, so despite this flaw the system has been a major improvement in passenger rail safety.   

[super tm]

Does the central locking activate if a door is on the catch? Does the TM^‡(resolve) have an indication on a door panel to show central locking activation? Forgive me if I'm being na^ve, but if there is an indication and the train moves off with a door 'on the catch' then the fault lies with the TM for mistakenly giving 'two' to the driver.

If the door is on the catch the CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking) will hold it closed. It cannot come open.  This is how the system is designed.

However there is no detection system to  show this so it is possible to give two with a door on the catch or even open.

[Henry]

 Totally unacceptable in my opinion.
 As much as I like the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s, in their current form are they not life expired in 10 years (i.e. slam doors)?
 Seem to remember SWT^▸ (South West Trains) had to replace their slam door stock a few years back.
 Surely the cost of modification wouldn't be practical ?
 Current climate or not, I believe that doing nothing is not an option.
 
 Sometimes you wonder if the Government realise their is a world outside the M25.

[Tim]

I thought that the "on-catch" problem was actually a safety feature caused by the door mechanism having two catches.  When properly closed both catches are used and when "on catch" only the first catch is engaged.  Your car doors have a very similar system.  Both catches are obviously safer than one mainly because the door is less likely to fly open if there is a single catch failure (caused by door malfunction or impact of a crash), but a door "on catch" is equally safe to a single catch door and is not an immediate threat to life especially when the CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking) is engaged because it is very unlilely to open by just being lent on. 

Whilst a design from scratch would doubtless have CDL only working when both catches were closed, and whilst manual doors have obvious drawbacks in terms of hassle and delay for dispatch staff and passengers, I do not think that there is a significant safety problem.  Remember that most doors are not left on catch and that most that are are spotted by the TM^‡(resolve) or platform staff and sorted (and there is the experimental yellow diamond to help with this) and that even if a door was locked on catch the chances of it opening in transit are very remote.   

[Not from Brighton]

I rode around on quite a few different types of stock on the continent a couple of years back. I think that the Mk3s compare very favourably to anything else in Europe. In general, stock on the continent seems to be much older than that found here in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). The TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) in particular are nothing special on the inside. Loco-haul seems to be very common on all but the most high profile routes.

I think if they could just get the TM^‡(resolve)/PA^▸ (Public Address) system combination to work the mk3s would be on a par with anything else in europe for many years to come.

Clearly you can't compare the performance of the diesel HST^▸ (High Speed Train) with electric stock on the continent.

[Tim]

truth is all this talk of electrification will have put ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) off investing in desiel stock (especially mainline stock) so an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) life extension is entirely sensible.

The next government will and must cut spending and rail will not be immune from this.  The best we can hope for is that it is done intellegently.  Life extension of HSTs instead of the unproven desiel and bimode IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) trains might be intellegent.  I'd much rather put up with drafty mark 3 for another decade than have the network or services cut back.   

[woody]

Ultimately trains are only as good as the infrastructure they run on,compromise is therefore going to be the name of the game on our railways as public sector spending cuts and rising TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) franchise premiums take their toll.A re-engineered HST^▸ (High Speed Train) though not an ideal solution running on upgraded infrastructure is in the circumstances preferable to a inadequate new train running on inadequate infrastructure.
 Its 33 years since the first HST power cars entered service,unfortunately even today 125mph still remains unatainable anywhere away trom the core Paddington/Bristol route and in some parts of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network only half that speed is possible so what money is available needs to be spent wisely on train and infrastructure improvements.The reason we are where we are now is because when the money was available it was squandered a process that started with the 1955 modernisation plan and has continued right up to today as the true costs of John Majors botched rail privatisation have emerged

[Chris from Nailsea]

A topical news article, from the Gloucester Citizen:

Call for inquiry after train door incident

A politician is demanding an inquiry after a man was almost thrown from a train when the door flew open mid-journey in the Cotswolds.

Gloucester councillor Andrew Gravells was travelling to the city from London on a First Great Western service this month when a door on one of the carriages opened.

The incident happened as the train travelled between Kemble station, near Cirencester, and the station in Stroud.

Mr Gravells said a young passenger tried to get it closed again and was almost thrown from the train as it went through a tunnel. He said: "If anyone had been stood by the door when it flew open they wouldn't have had a chance of surviving, especially while the train was travelling through the tunnel. There should be a trip device in place to stop trains from leaving a station if the door isn't securely locked. Luckily nobody was injured this time but if the train had been packed it could have been a different, tragic story."

Mr Gravells said he believed the man in question, who had a lucky escape when he tried to close the door, was called Noel.

He added that after the train stopped and the door was closed again, the driver of the train was forced to walk through a tunnel to get it moving. He said: "Because the train driver couldn't make contact with the signal operators, he had to leave the train and walk to the end of the tunnel to get the signals altered."

Meanwhile, rail bosses have said they will launch an investigation.

A First Great Western spokesman confirmed the door was left open on the service on December 9. He said: "This should never have happened and, although no one was injured, we are treating the matter very seriously.

"We've reported the incident to the Office of Rail Regulation and the Rail Accident Investigation Branch.

"When we were alerted to the incident the train was stopped immediately and the door was locked out of use."

[inspector_blakey]

There's a good reason why there are stickers by the doors saying "if the door is not properly cloed and the train is moving, do not attempt to close it but use the emergency alarm located in the saloon"!

Internal door handles have never been regarded as a good idea because they do greatly increase the chances of a door being opened by mistake (think small child wandering around in the vestibule and fiddling with the latch...as well as many othe possibilities).

BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) did fit some mark I stock (both loco-hauled and EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)) with internal door handles but these are a completely different design from the outside handles and so stiff (to reduce the chances of accidental door opening) that you need pretty stong fingers to open them. The net result is that most people ended up using the outside handles anyway and I think, although I'm open to correction, that the locks with internal handles were ultimately replaced. Bear in mind that these vehucles never had CDL^▸ (Central Door Locking).