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Btline
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 22:55:28 » |
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Exactly, do what VT▸ do! Cut stops, make First Class value for money!
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devon_metro
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 16:09:08 » |
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I think what Adonis is proposing is far less drastic than what btline suggests, cutting stops is not that great, we have a shortage of rolling stock in this country so if we cut the trains that actually have the capacity (because they are empty off peak) what on earth are we achieving.
Off peak there is far less demand for "fast" services skipping every stop.
Re First Class, i'm sure FallenAngel might agree - its a premium service, this it shouldn't be value for money compared to your average standard class fare. It's all very well filling up the seats, however I suspect many genuine First Class passengers will take their custom onto the road if it was full up and full of "plebs"!
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Lee
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 16:18:30 » |
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Is Adonis beginning to sound like a man who could get a taste for running rail services directly?
Just a thought...
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matt473
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 17:07:12 » |
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Exactly, do what VT▸ do! Cut stops, make First Class value for money!
It is not as simple as youmake seem for many reasons. Virgin cutting stops has left many stations now with what is arguably a much poorer service as a result of cutting the number of stations served. To make up for services no longer calling at the stations you need to create new services which is what happened with LM▸ but the ECML▸ does not have spare capcity for this. Virgin can only aford to do what it does as a result of the billions invested in the WCML▸ which in my opinion is fine if you live in Scotland, London, Manchester, Liverpool and Brmingham but crap if you live anywhere else. I suggest you look at how many services were cut and how many places lost out because of Virgins new timetable before making such claims as it is not as easy as it seems |
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Timmer
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 17:29:57 » |
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Is Adonis beginning to sound like a man who could get a taste for running rail services directly?
Just a thought...
A good thought at that Lee but sadly I read today somewhere that if the Tories get into power he would probably be offered a role back in education where he was before moving to DFT▸ . |
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paul7575
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 17:32:09 » |
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Getting away from fares for a moment, how could NXEC▸ or GNER▸ before them speed up the timetable? A quick glance at the mass of correspondence so far about the new ECML▸ timetable for next December (on the ORR» website) would suggest that the timetable is written by Network Rail, to meet requirements set by DfT» .
So Adonis saying that he can improve speeds is already down to DfT and NR» to sort out, exactly the same as in the past. As a recent example, the current WCML▸ timetable was written by DfT as well...
Paul
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Lee
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 17:57:38 » |
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I remember only too well responding to the DfT» 's WCML▸ Timetable Consultation...
It was swings and roundabouts to a certain extent. You had the well-publicised cases of stations such as Nuneaton losing out, and also smaller stations such as Polesworth, Norton Bridge, Wedgwood, Barlaston and Etruria which either have no rail service at all or an unusable one (in Polesworth's case) as a result of the WCML saga.
On the other hand places such as Atherstone and Stone saw the opposite effect, with dreadful/non-existent services ultimately turning into hourly ones.
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Btline
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 17:03:09 » |
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Express services are always going to take priority.
It is a shame about the loss of Etruria etc, but I expect the money required for extra tracks for stopping trains was not worth it.
The end result - much faster trains from the West Midlands, North Wales, North West and Scotland HUGLEY overpowers the losses. The next step should be 2 tph to Liverpool (the new one stopping at Nuneton), and a few extra Voyagers to places like Blackpool, Morecambe, Windermere, Barrow - if demand exists (perhaps summer only)., These should call at Tamworth.
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matt473
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 17:13:01 » |
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If faster trains to certain places outweighs the loss of local services, then would you care to explain to people who live in these areas why they should take lower priorityover htose in larger cities? I am not saying we should not have express services, in fact I would love to have many more of them, but not at the expense of local services. I'm guessing you may not live in a rural area as such or even one with a poor service otherwise you may be more understanding of the social costs of removing local services which usually far outweigh the financial benefits of faster services.
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Btline
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 11:59:58 » |
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Because far more passengers will benefit with lots of expresses and few locals than vice versa! Think about it.
We may not like it, but it's a fact. The priority is getting the balance right. Perhaps the WCML▸ went a bit over the line, but the results for the millions of InterCity passengers is great!
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 12:09:51 » |
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The end result - much faster trains from the West Midlands, North Wales, North West and Scotland HUGLEY overpowers the losses. The next step should be 2 tph to Liverpool (the new one stopping at Nuneton), and a few extra Voyagers to places like Blackpool, Morecambe, Windermere, Barrow - if demand exists (perhaps summer only)., These should call at Tamworth.
I agree that the Trent Valley stations should have a better service. From a non-experts view it seems a bit over-the-top to have an hourly Chester service throughout the day (occasionally continuing to either Bangor or Holyhead) which stops at Milton Keynes and Crewe only, operated by a Voyager. When I saw a lunchtime service at Milton Keynes the other month it was probably less than a third full - perhaps a stop at Nuneaton should be considered for these trains? I know pathing is tight, but Nuneaton now has a much worse service than it used to. If a second hourly off-peak service was introduced for Liverpool (with Manchester and Birmingham now getting 3tph, you could argue 2tph to Liverpool would be suitable for a city of its size) then perhaps a stop at Nuneaton could indeed be added on an hourly basis. That could then allow an alternate stop at Tamworth and Lichfield on the Chester services to give a two-hourly fast London service from those stations too. It's about getting a balance, and I think Virgin have swayed a little to far towards the 'fast train' side of the argument, as Btline has said, and have neglected certain mid-sized towns in the Trent Valley area. The population for Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield combined is getting on for 200k and all three offer connectional opportunities onto local regional services. The changes I've outlined above would help to readdress yje balance - without compromising the fast services now being enjoyed by the larger settlements. |
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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Tim
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 12:16:19 » |
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There is an question of balance here between local and "intercity", but we need to remember that it is the Intercity services that make the money. The government's policy of increasing the share of rail's costs to be paid by the passenger means that fares will go up. I disagree with that policy but it looks like it is here to stay.
There is a limit to how much you can charge for a local service in a pacer or overcrowded commuter train. The only way you can begin to justify charging the high intercity fares that the current railway ecconomics model requires is by attracting better off passengers and business people, and for them things like good timings, good catering, decent first class, etc really matter.
Industry Insider makes a good point about frequency to Liverpool versus that to Manchester. Barry Doe, certainly thinks that Liverpool deserves better and he places the blame for the one per hour speciifcation firmly at the door of the DfT» , saying that Virgin would have prefered to run 2tph.
One wonders how things will charge when the GWML▸ gets electrified (and when in cab signalling allows the Super Express trains to be sped up to 140 mph). At the moment FGW▸ HSTs▸ stop at far to many places. Will there be a temptation to speed up timings to maximise the "sparks effect"?
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Lee
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 12:17:51 » |
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It is a shame about the loss of Etruria etc, but I expect the money required for extra tracks for stopping trains was not worth it. The closure of Etruria was actually implemented so that the tracks could be realigned allowing for higher speeds and shorter journey times. It has been argued that Etruria was subjected to a systematic "closure by stealth" plan in order to justify this. Other events that some consider to be rather dodgy were the removal of footbridges at Norton Bridge and Polesworth. This resulted in one of the platforms becoming inaccessable at Polesworth and the entire station becoming inaccessable at Norton Bridge. So yes, I guess there is a body of opinion that would suggest that "the WCML▸ went a bit over the line"... Returning to my earlier suggestion... Is Adonis beginning to sound like a man who could get a taste for running rail services directly?
Just a thought...
Interesting article from Christian Wolmar - http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2009/12/adonis-is-an-object-lesson-of-how-to-get-things-done/Of course he maintains the line that it is impossible for the government to retain the franchise beyond the two year time frame he has imposed and says he has no desire to do so, but there was a distinct feeling on the inaugural train that Adonis was rather enjoying running trains. |
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devon_metro
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 13:56:09 » |
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Because far more passengers will benefit with lots of expresses and few locals than vice versa! Think about it.
We may not like it, but it's a fact.
No, it really isn't! Not everybody wants to go to London. Take the 0540 & 0650 Penzance - London, both stop at Westbury. There is considerable demand to and from here for onward connections to Wiltshire and the South Coast. It is not a fact that more passengers would benefit from a 5 minute time saving by not stopping here as far more will be disadvantaged as they have to dogleg around Bristol and would probably drive. |
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