Turbo new cis system

[whole diary]

[Lee]

My question would be this - Is the refresh going to be done in such a way that takes into account that Turbos could be heading towards routes in my part of the world post-Electrification, such as Portsmouth-Cardiff?

Or will they need another one in a few years time?

[paul7575]

Of course this is just the famous refresh that was announced at the franchise change.

Then when the 'remedial programme' was announced, the S of S at the time told us all that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were going to make early changes to the Turbo Fleet as part of their 'punishment'.  Which was just so much politician's spin because...

...then, absolutely nothing happened, and FGW said they hadn't agreed that at all, and the refresh would take place in due course, ie 2010 as planned.

Paul

 

[James Vertigan]

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work

Huh... you want to go on the Greenford line - they've got a guy on there on peak afternoon/evening services who sits in First Class by himself and always turns people away from the First Class area even when the rest of the train is full to bursting with people crammed into doorways etc - surely if the rest of the train is full to capacity he should let people in to FC^‡(resolve) - I don't even know why they run trains with FC compartments on the Greenford route, I'm sure nobody ever buys a First Class ticket for that route, it's hardly worth it!

[Mookiemoo]

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work

Huh... you want to go on the Greenford line - they've got a guy on there on peak afternoon/evening services who sits in First Class by himself and always turns people away from the First Class area even when the rest of the train is full to bursting with people crammed into doorways etc - surely if the rest of the train is full to capacity he should let people in to FC^‡(resolve) - I don't even know why they run trains with FC compartments on the Greenford route, I'm sure nobody ever buys a First Class ticket for that route, it's hardly worth it!

And quite right he should!

[Richard Fairhurst]

So, over the course of a week, I make that 115 services operated by HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and 102 operated by Turbos. If we define "majority" as more than half (since that's what it means) then a clear majority of services remain operated by HSTs and intercity service quality is not "a distant dream".

...is one way of putting it. The other way of putting it is that 47% of intercity services are being operated by suburban trains.

It's pretty outrageous that even a single service between Paddington and Hereford is operated by what is, after all, suburban stock with 3+2 seating. I believe (from postings on uk.railway) this is the longest duration of any service diagrammed for 3+2 stock in Britain. Even FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s 150s have been refitted with 2+2 seating.

[Btline]

Just do what Chiltern did!

And perhaps 2+2 seating and no First Class. But as a longer distance passenger, I don't know what the effects would be in the Thames Valley.

And then install Phil Sayer auto announcements! (Why isn't he on any train?) But keep them short, concise and not repeated. "Common sense" adverts (smoking, luggage, wet weather, safety, etc) should be BANNED, they are a waste of CO₂!

[IndustryInsider]

Just do what Chiltern did!

I thought it was patently clear to everybody on this forum that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will not be spending that kind of money, and moreover they can be excused for not spending that kind of money because of the vast difference in the length of the franchise and the time in which they would have to recoup the investment. Lovely though it might be, they're not about to chuck ^40m* or so at them - I believe ^6m has been earmarked for the job?

* An estimate based on the ^20m cost of doing less vehicles for Chiltern 5-years ago.

[James Vertigan]

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work

Huh... you want to go on the Greenford line - they've got a guy on there on peak afternoon/evening services who sits in First Class by himself and always turns people away from the First Class area even when the rest of the train is full to bursting with people crammed into doorways etc - surely if the rest of the train is full to capacity he should let people in to FC^‡(resolve) - I don't even know why they run trains with FC compartments on the Greenford route, I'm sure nobody ever buys a First Class ticket for that route, it's hardly worth it!

And quite right he should!

He should what? Keep First class to himself or let some of the passenger overspill in?

[Mookiemoo]

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work

Huh... you want to go on the Greenford line - they've got a guy on there on peak afternoon/evening services who sits in First Class by himself and always turns people away from the First Class area even when the rest of the train is full to bursting with people crammed into doorways etc - surely if the rest of the train is full to capacity he should let people in to FC^‡(resolve) - I don't even know why they run trains with FC compartments on the Greenford route, I'm sure nobody ever buys a First Class ticket for that route, it's hardly worth it!

And quite right he should!

He should what? Keep First class to himself or let some of the passenger overspill in?

Not let them spill  in unless they pay for first class

[James Vertigan]

But it's just ridiculous that people are packed into that train and he sits there on his own - it's not worth paying First Class fares as its such a short route - I know FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can't help there being First Class compartments on the route as the trains are also used for other longer routes, but really, if people don't buy First Class tickets for that route they shouldn't bother operating trains with FC^‡(resolve) compartments on that route.

One day it could also lead to a nasty case of discrimination if a less able bodied person happens to be on the full train and wants a seat but nobody in the train gives up a seat (but one would hope there would be someone decent enough to do so).

[Electric train]

Which is exactly my point the 165's do not need first class especially the 2 car units it is also questionable that the 3 car units and even the 166's need first class, the London & Reading suburban services need the space.  The first few rows of seats inside the vestibules need turn 90 deg to increase standing room. 

Lets make the TV commute more tolerable, no tables and no first class

[Mookiemoo]

But it's just ridiculous that people are packed into that train and he sits there on his own - it's not worth paying First Class fares as its such a short route - I know FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can't help there being First Class compartments on the route as the trains are also used for other longer routes, but really, if people don't buy First Class tickets for that route they shouldn't bother operating trains with FC^‡(resolve) compartments on that route.

One day it could also lead to a nasty case of discrimination if a less able bodied person happens to be on the full train and wants a seat but nobody in the train gives up a seat (but one would hope there would be someone decent enough to do so).

But maybe if you knew you were going to get a seat in peace and quiet and not be crowded by underpaying scroates, more people WOULD pay for first class even on that line.

[Kingfisherdart]

Do we know if the exteriors will be touched (ie repaint into blue, plus Vinyls, as per FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) 321s?)

Or will the outsides be left as they are now?

Luke

[Richard Fairhurst]

* An estimate based on the ^20m cost of doing less vehicles for Chiltern 5-years ago.

But why would the entire suburban fleet need to be upgraded to Chiltern standards?

If you restore the 8.58 Malvern->Paddington to be the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) it should be (plus the associated outbound working from Paddington), then the weekday Turbo service on the Cotswold Line can be covered by just two units.

I'm not under any illusions that just upgrading three DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) is particularly economical; nor that there's magic money around for new builds; nor even that Chiltern have two 168s spare that they could loan out, which would be the ideal solution. But the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) DMU fleet will be changing in future years, especially if the Main Line/Oxford electrification goes ahead. It's important to start asking now so that, when the decisions are made, the need for long-distance DMUs is taken into account.

(I'm playing a bit fast-and-loose with the diagramming; there's actually a -8 minute turnaround at Paddington between 14.29 and 14.21, so it doesn't quite work. But, conversely, there's some long gaps which could be shrunk too. Assuming that the service pattern could be adjusted to suit the stock, you get the general idea.)

[willc]

Which is exactly my point the 165's do not need first class especially the 2 car units it is also questionable that the 3 car units and even the 166's need first class, the London & Reading suburban services need the space.  The first few rows of seats inside the vestibules need turn 90 deg to increase standing room. 

Lets make the TV commute more tolerable, no tables and no first class

Come out on the Cotswold Line some time and you will see why there is first class seating in Turbos - on certain trains if a 165 turns up instead of a 166, especially on the 8.58 from Malvern, then first class ticketholders from charlbury often find there are no seats left for them and have to ride in standard until Oxford, where they can gets seats in first in the extra set that couples on there - not exactly the service they are paying a hefty premium for. Even on the two-car sets you will find people transferring from an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) into the halts Turbo at Oxford. And if you want more standing room, fit 2+2 seats, like FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s 150s, the 172s ordered for LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), etc.

Inspector, while you have done a lovely job counting what will be happening next month, you don't seem to have bothered counting up what we have now, never mind what was running from 2004 onwards, when it was an HST or Adelante on something like 80 per cent of the services, against barely more than 50 per cent from December, going by your tally.

At present on Saturdays, 13 out of 15 London-bound trains are HSTs and 11 out of 14 the other way - not exactly a favourable comparison with your figures above. Rather more InterCity quality and comfort there than there will be in a fortnight's time, while two HST weekday train pairs from last December's timetable were excised in February, again reducing a weighting previously heavily favouring HSTs.

And a good number of the weekday HST services that remain outside the peak are running the 'wrong' way compared with where the passenger flow is going, eg every morning I sit on a crowded Turbo on the 8.58 from Malvern as it passes the 8.22 HST to Hereford just outside Moreton, with dozens of empty seats going west. While I wouldn't wish a journey to Hereford by Turbo on anyone, it's pretty clear which of the two services really should have an HST.

Yes, we had just a handful of HSTs each way pre-2004, but the services on the route were split between FGW and Thames at that time and it was painfully obvious long before 2004 that the Turbos had done such a good job of growing custom that something bigger and better was needed and that something - putting 180s on Oxford and Cotswold services to offer that InterCity quality and comfort - played a big part in helping FGW clinch the deal to run the Thames Valley routes from 2004-6.

Are you saying that it's okay to remove stock designed for long-distance services in favour of - your words - bin lorries on wheels? (and just to be pedantic, don't all bin lorries have wheels?). Even if the litter-picking is better, the Turbos are still the same inside as they were in the hands of Thames and NSE^▸ (Network South East) - and look destined to stay like that even after their 'refresh'.