Turbo new cis system

[whole diary]

[coachflyer]

Looks like the long awaited turbo refresh will finally be starting in the new year.

http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/News/MostEmailed/968831/TrainFX-secures-1m-signage-deal-First-Great-Western/

[IndustryInsider]

I think the replacement of the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) is actually on a different timescale to the Turbo refresh - though the two will probably be happening hand-in-hand at least for part of the programme.

Let's hope that recent frustrations about a barrage of announcements, voiced on here as well as elsewhere, will lead to a sensible system that doesn't go over the top, and actually provides information (biased on visual) rather than a whole raft of nonsense! Let's also hope its GPS enabled, but works much better than the unreliable Chiltern version!

As for the actual Turbo refresh. What would people like to see?

I've been careful to consider only those things that don't cost too much, as a 'proper' refresh like Chiltern did won't be feasible. Here's my own personal wishlist:

1) The basics: replacement carpets, laminate floors and seat covers along with a thorough clean of all interior fixture and fittings.
2) Tables and sockets provided in first class on both 165 and 166's.
3) Air Conditioning on 166's replaced with a system that works - and a solution to the ever opened windows.
4) Tables in most bays of 4 seats throughout standard class on 165 and 166's. There isn't too much space, so perhaps a fold-out design similar to the Class 168's on Chiltern?
5) For the drivers: A refurbished cab like on Chiltern's 165's as bits added on and falling off in the current cabs makes them look very untidy. Also, better noise insulation between the cab and passenger saloons.
6) Heating improvements to both cab and passenger areas - some sets take literally hours to warm up!
7) Windows on 165's thoroughly checked to make sure they close properly.
Toilets given a good Chiltern style refurb including the replacement of the hopeless plastic/china toilets in the 2-Car sets with stainless steel ones as on the rest of the fleet, and a hand-dryer that is actually capable of drying hands!
9) Replacement head and tail lights with LED style ones.

[Electric train]

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work, suburban commuter, the extra standard accommodation would be usefully, table just take up space and fold up ones would last 5 minuets, airline arrangement like the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) refurb would give more seating.

New flooring - yes
Improved heating for 165 - yes
Improved locks on windows - yes
166 air con fix or total removal and opening windows fitted


Puts tin 'at on awaits flak from the Cotswolds 

[devon_metro]

hopefully they don't install the depressing woman who announces at Maidenhead and many other Thames trains haunts...

"First.........greatwestern.."

It's no wonder the area seems so depressed listening to her all the time.

[IndustryInsider]

How about removal of 1st class, tickets are never checked where the turbo's do most of their work, suburban commuter, the extra standard accommodation would be usefully, table just take up space and fold up ones would last 5 minuets, airline arrangement like the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) refurb would give more seating.

I take your point about 1st Class being largely academic on the Reading-Paddington stoppers, but the conundrum is that 1st Class is worthwhile on the longer journeys, but you can't by any means guarantee that 166's can be kept on those routes. The utilisation of the fleet is just too intense for that. Imagine how much of negative impact a Turbo replacement would have to a first class paying HST hopeful on the Cotswold Line if there wasn't even a first class section!

I think it's a red herring to say that it would give extra standard accommodation over and above a handful of seats, as little regard is given to 1st Class by passengers on the suburban services anyway. That's down to a combination of irregular ticket checks, the 'type' of person that travels (if I can be as politically correct as possibly), and no doubt some genuine confusion cause by the fact that the Heathrow Connect trains don't even have a first class section.

As for the tables, I meant slide out tables rather than fold-out ones (my error) which would be more robust, but as you say, more prone to vandalism.

As for First........greatwestern - don't forget that when the Thames Trains system was installed, there was no First Great Western, so I think they had to get her back in to record the word 'First' - that's why it sounds a little odd!

[hornbeam]

Toilets that dont stink in the summer

windows that stay shut

166 windows that can be locked

doors that close without the driver getting out and kicking them shut

corridor air doors that work

Air con that works

thermostats that work

new floors

new seats

no first class on 165 units

bits not falling off

new tables

All the above to be looked after!!! See no point in a 'refresh' if the units are left to rot.

rant over  

[inspector_blakey]

6) Heating improvements to both cab and passenger areas - some sets take literally hours to warm up!

...and others never warm up at all!

They may not be perfect, but actually I've said before that I think they're pretty good trains for reasonably short journeys (sub-one-hour). And much as people whinge about them now, at least FGW^▸ (First Great Western) keeps them in reasonable order internally: window etching dealt with promptly, no internal graffiti, seat covers generally in decent nick etc. Some people seem to have very short memories - you don't have to go back too far to when Thames Trains was in control and the bulk of Cotswold services used Turbos; furthermore, this was when the Turbos were in their "90 mph litter bin" state.

I know I've dared to suggest before that the Turbos weren't 100% awful, only to be flamed by certain members of the Cotswold contingent...let's see what happens this time...  

[hornbeam]

oh and ifo screens that work, both inside and and on the front of the train.

[Mookiemoo]

Toilets given a good Chiltern style refurb including the replacement of the hopeless plastic/china toilets in the 2-Car sets with stainless steel ones as on the rest of the fleet, and a hand-dryer that is actually capable of drying hands!

Can I add.......toilets with water in the bowl........

I just find it repulsive to do anything other than the bare minimum in one of those things with no water

Sorry to lower the tone but I dont see how they could flush properly

[inspector_blakey]

Don't want to lower the tone further but it rather depends on how hard the flush sucks...!

No water in aircraft toilets after all, but god help you if you manage to flush it whilst sitting down...

[Sprog]

The new CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) system is incredibly advanced and a huge amount of investment and devlopment has gone into the project, i can assure you.

Just wish they;d fitted them to the West Fleet, or at least the 158s.

[IndustryInsider]

The new CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) system is incredibly advanced and a huge amount of investment and devlopment has gone into the project, i can assure you.

I'm pleased to hear that, Sprog. Though you'll forgive me for being a little tentative as huge amounts of investment and development doesn't necessarily mean it'll do what the average passenger wants, and anything that's incredibly advanced is prone to all sorts of teething troubles - just take a look at the over-engineered 180's for proof of that!

[willc]

Well I hope a huge amount of investment will be going into the rest of the work on the Turbos - just very dubious that this is going to be the case when, unlike the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and West dmus, the work is being done in house at Reading depot.

I'm sure the workforce there is more than capable, but it does make me sceptical about the scale of the work that will be done - especially when the few public pronouncements on it seem to have dried up months ago and those that there were seemed to be progressively less ambitious - there certainly won't be a new a/c system in the 166s - too difficult/expensive.

They may not be perfect, but actually I've said before that I think they're pretty good trains for reasonably short journeys (sub-one-hour). And much as people whinge about them now, at least FGW^▸ (First Great Western) keeps them in reasonable order internally: window etching dealt with promptly, no internal graffiti, seat covers generally in decent nick etc. Some people seem to have very short memories - you don't have to go back too far to when Thames Trains was in control and the bulk of Cotswold services used Turbos

No, they are not perfect and many journeys made on the Cotswold Line are well over an hour, including Oxford-Worcester, never mind going on to Reading or London. I have no problem with them for my own regular 30-35 min journey, so long as they are not grossly overcrowded and I can get a seat well away from the doors, so I don't freeze to death at every station stop for half the year. Unfortunately, when they are used on the first off-peak, Network/Cotswold railcards valid, train from Worcestershire, after a 75-minute gap in the southbound service, they are crowded and extremely unpleasant to travel on - and it would seem that those awful, uncomfortable seats are going to stay post-refresh.

While FGW may be better at keeping them basically tidy than Thames was in its dying days, the fact remains they are fundamentally the same train that was delivered to NSE^▸ (Network South East) and I'm afraid it looks like FGW is going to miss the chance to actually rework them in a serious way to make them best suited for the second half of their lives - how about some vestibule doors to help keep the heat in the passenger saloons during the winter? Dream on...

And my memory does stretch back quite long enough thank you, even further than 20 months in fact, all the way to December 2004, when a certain train operator launched its new timetable with great fanfare, promising the following:

"There are many improvements for customers, including the majority of services between London Paddington and the Cotswolds being operated by new 125mph Adelante trains delivering InterCity quality and comfort to the route throughout the day."

Five years on, with yet more Turbos supplanting HSTs in a couple of weeks' time, we seem to be going back to the future in these parts, with InterCity quality a distant dream. When train operators come out with this kind of stuff, they really ought to keep their side of the bargain. I'm not expecting a great fanfare from FGW next month...

If it were the case that we were getting heavily overhauled Turbos, with 2+2 seating, more tables and the kind of things Insider suggests - which all sounds rather like, er, an Adelante - people might be marginally less hostile to them in these parts, but of course we are getting nothing of the sort, just the same trains we thought we had seen the back of, in much the same state they were in back in 2004 - though at least FGW use a seating material which doesn't seem to work loose after a couple of days' use, unlike the stuff used for the Thames overhauls.

[Richard Fairhurst]

As for the actual Turbo refresh. What would people like to see?

1. Taken outside
2. Shot

But seriously... if Turbos are here to stay on the Cotswold Line, a small, dedicated fleet of 159/168-like refits; enduring a 165 all the way from Hereford (which I've done twice on recent Sundays) is No Fun At All. willc is spot on.

[inspector_blakey]

While FGW^▸ (First Great Western) may be better at keeping them basically tidy than Thames was in its dying days...

I used them regularly from 1999 onwards, so hardly the dying days of the franchise, and they were bin lorries on wheels then. The interiors (by then nearly a decade old) were left untouched and it seemed all TT could ever be arsed to do was stick their logos on the outside.

Five years on, with yet more Turbos supplanting HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) in a couple of weeks' time, we seem to be going back to the future in these parts, with InterCity quality a distant dream.

Poetic, but not accurate. I have in front of me the December 2009 timetable (and admittedly I'm making the assumption that the trains will run in practice as booked in the timetable).

It shows...
Weekdays, down: 9 x HST, 7 x Turbo.
Weekdays, up: 9 x HST, 8 x Turbo.
Saturdays, down: 6 x HST, 8 x Turbo.
Saturdays, up: 8 x HST, 7 x Turbo.
Sundays* down: 7 x HST, 5 x Turbo.
Sundays* up: 4 x HST, 7 x Turbo.

*until 31 Jan, from 04 Apr, in between it's a quagmire of replacement buses.

So, over the course of a week, I make that 115 services operated by HSTs and 102 operated by Turbos. If we define "majority" as more than half (since that's what it means) then a clear majority of services remain operated by HSTs and intercity service quality is not "a distant dream".

Apologies for the descent into somewhat extreme pedantry, but I wouldn't want to be accused of being inaccurate. FGW are actually still operating a majority of services using intercity-quality stock as they announced in 2004. It's certainly a lot more than the two return services a day (if my memory serves me correctly) that were operated by HSTs prior to then.