Rail line hit by driver shortage. (BBC News 08/11/09)

[whole diary]

[Tim]

I have no problems with unions.  I do think however that this Sunday working business has been badly managed by all the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) since privatisation.  In a time where traditionally low salaries have increased (esp for drivers) getting Sunday working as part of the contract still hasn't been achieved.

It is no way to run a business and needs to be sorted out across the industry.  

[IndustryInsider]

Many organisations won't recognise unions, but if it was realistic that all the permanent staff in your industry did join a union then effectively they would be forced to recognise them and working conditions and pay would most likely improve

Nope - because they'd just be laid off first and then the like of me brought in as an independent. 

Well I don't know enough about your specific industry to comment too much though there must be an advantage to your company having permanent employees otherwise there wouldn't be any and everyone would be an independent temp? Theoretically at least a union might be able to exploit that to the members benefit?

As I said and have said previously, there are some industries which are more suited to unions than others, and I am no fan of certain aspects of the union movement. Taking train drivers as an example, they are more suited as everyone is equal due to the fact it is near on impossible to differentiate between them. There is no sensible way to measure them against targets (aside from sickness and coming to work on time - the first of which is always a thorny issue). If you can tell me a practical and fair way that it can be done then please do?

Anyone who objects should be made to pack their bags - there are plenty of people out there who could be trained to do the job.

And that's where our industries differ crucially. Even if it was possible to just get rid of a load of drivers just like that, then you can't just bring temps to cover then like in your industry. There are indeed plenty of people who would happily come in a do the job on worse conditions that the current incumbents get, but the training period is around 12 months, and that doesn't include advertising, interviewing, initial tests, medicals, etc. You can't effectively plan to run a company based on projections of new staff needed with a 15 month lead time.

[gaf71]

Im told it costs somewhere in the region of ^75000 to train a Train Driver!

[Mookiemoo]

The point is, the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) needs to go the same way and the NUM did - yes it will be awful in the short term for the likes of myself, and I would have much sympathy with the more moderate members of the unions, but we need a thatcher to break them as long as they continue to pull stunts like this.

[dog box]

The point is, the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) needs to go the same way and the NUM did - yes it will be awful in the short term for the likes of myself, and I would have much sympathy with the more moderate members of the unions, but we need a thatcher to break them as long as they continue to pull stunts like this.

you are quite welcome to your rather in my view extreme opinion but please get your facts right......the majority of train drivers belong to ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) ...so prehaps you could explain what actual stunt the RMT has managed to pull

[Mookiemoo]

The point is, the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) needs to go the same way and the NUM did - yes it will be awful in the short term for the likes of myself, and I would have much sympathy with the more moderate members of the unions, but we need a thatcher to break them as long as they continue to pull stunts like this.

you are quite welcome to your rather in my view extreme opinion but please get your facts right......the majority of train drivers belong to ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) ...so prehaps you could explain what actual stunt the RMT has managed to pull

I stand correct - RMT/ ASLEF - one is, as far as I can tell, a slightly less rabid version of the other.

The stunt they are pulling is to effectively go on strike by working to rule when it is an established practice that train crew work sundays.  now, that may be vague in working but that is the way it is portrayed, that is effectively as far as I can see what is happening and its all effectively going on strike without having to go through the voting/formal process.

But I stand to be corrected.  Its oft been said that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s do not want the sunday to be part of the working week BUT how much of a premium are the unions asking for?  With the exception of places like the NHS, most industries that require sunday working are just that - they work sundays like any other day and their two days off are whenever rostered.  i'd be very surprised if the unions are not asking for some extra pay for rostering sundays even if they get their days off else where - be that two days or three days or whatever.

I charge a premium for working sat/sun but only because I work mon-fri.   I would be happy to work thur-mon and have tue/wed off - at least I could get things done on my "weekend".

[smithy]

Im told it costs somewhere in the region of ^75000 to train a Train Driver!

that sounds about correct.

another thing to add is new drivers even ones from other tocs only sign a couple of routes after training.once they have more driving experience are they then able to learn more complex roads for example portsmouth and cardiff.
so it is not simply a case of getting rid and bringing more in  especially when new drivers spend time training with minders/old hands.

[Exeter]

If traincrew are contracted to work a 35 hour week excluding Sundays and dont wish to work overtime then why should they be forced to do so??  if the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) negotiated responsibly with the Trade Unions instead trying to get something for nothing at every opportunity then half of these problems wouldn't arise. If traincrew worked a 35 hour week where Sunday was within the working week then I dont think many employees would have a problem with that - providing any revised working arrangements were negotiated professionally, as they would still get two days off a week. But why should people be under pressure to work a six day week, albeit one days worth of overtime if they dont want to?? Should a depot have say, 30 turns on a sunday, then to incorporate those turns into the working week (ie 30 divide by 5 = 6) that depot require six extra staff with all the extra costs that the TOC would incur. Conclusion therefore is that certain TOCs are trying to cover Sundays on the cheap and personally I have very little sympathy for any TOC(s) in that position! And, having been a regular commutor on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now for the last ten years I cannot ever recall my journey to work being disrupted by any form of industrial action by traincrew! Certain people that post on here seem to be almost paronoid when the subject of Trade Unions and industrial action is raised!! So please, can someone tell me, when was the last time FGW services suffered from industrial action???

[Mookiemoo]

I'm paranoid about trade unions and industrial action because THEY ARE WRONG

If you are good at what you do and worth your wage - you'll be paid it.  If not, you can go to another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) if you dont like the deal where you are.

Even beyond the fact that 35 hours is about 5 hours short of the private sector (I wonder if five hours were added to the working week for every member of staff if they would still need 6 extra staff.......)

If your skills and abilities - and that includes negotiating, balls, and attitude are worth it - you will do fine or get a job elsewhere.  If not, why the heck should you be paid a premium.

If I don't cut it, I get replaced by an indian fast track visa on a third my rate.  I make sure I cut it. 

Employers are business and not charities and no one has any god given right to their job.

[Mookiemoo]

*Rant mode on*

To give an example - I bet if there was not union involvement, all aspects of a job were subject to performance review.

The number of TM^‡(resolve)'s I see gassing in the buffet when they havent done a ticket check AT ALL since Reading is ridiculous.  Yes, there are stops, especially with SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), where it is impossible to do anything between them - but if they can find time to sit there and gossip and not even do their paperwork, then they can do a blinking ticket check.

We know revenue is secondary to safety - but its not secondary to sitting there with your feet up. 

Now, if I were in my office with my feet up - I would expect (1) someone to shop me to my boss and (2) me to disciplined without a leg to stand on.  Suspect would not happen to a a unionized worker.

The fact is - most of the working world DO NOT have the benefit of the socialist stasi on their side, without the sick pay, pension, 35 hour week that rail workers/most ex public sector get.  Remember - its the private sector that has suffered so far in the recession - i'm lucky, I only suffer a rate loss even though my train ticket rises, I know some people - permies and contractors - who have been unemployed for 18 months. 

So it really does grate on the private sector (and yes I know officially rail is private but....) when people complain about having to work sundays when they have set a precedent by doing it (and no doubt appreciated the overtime pay!)

*Rant mode off*

[Btline]

For God's sake just make Sunday part of the week! It can't be that difficult, many people do so and the world goes on!

[Exeter]

Quite agree - five day week including Sundays!! Problem solved!!!!  And I ask the original question again - when was anyone's journey on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) affected by traincrew industrial action??

[Mookiemoo]

But this thread was NOT about FGW^▸ (First Great Western) industrial action but industrial action in another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)

[JayMac]

Quite agree - five day week including Sundays!! Problem solved!!!!  And I ask the original question again - when was anyone's journey on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) affected by traincrew industrial action??

We are in "The Wider Picture" with this thread, Exeter.

[gaf71]

But this thread was NOT about FGW^▸ (First Great Western) industrial action but industrial action in another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)

It wasn't industrial action, it was members of staff excercising their right, not to work enforced overtime, as per their contracts of employment.