Bristol connections: Metro, Bus Rapid Transit, PTE, ITA and local councils - discussion

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

The airport terminal is 170m asm, the nearest part of the Strawberry Line – just west of Congresbury – less than 10m. Wrington Hill and Goblin Combe lie between them. Looks difficult to me, purely from the terrain, before we take into account the political objections.

[John R]

Any route via Yatton is a non starter as its too much of a double back to the airport for Bristol traffic, which is always going to be the flow large enough to justify a rail link. And any thought of building a deep station box is surely going to render the project hopelessly uneconomic.

If Bristol had wanted a rail connected airport it could have chosen Filton. It didn't, and will have to live with an airport that is at best fairly inconvenient to get to from just about any direction by road.

[simonw]

Ah, but choosing Filton was always going to be too close to too many people, and now it is much worse.

[Noggin]

Any route via Yatton is a non starter as its too much of a double back to the airport for Bristol traffic, which is always going to be the flow large enough to justify a rail link. And any thought of building a deep station box is surely going to render the project hopelessly uneconomic.

If Bristol had wanted a rail connected airport it could have chosen Filton. It didn't, and will have to live with an airport that is at best fairly inconvenient to get to from just about any direction by road.

Might sound counter-intuitive, but Temple Meads to Yatton only takes 15 minutes at present, so you could continue to the airport and still be faster than the 30 minute airport bus. Furthermore, by allowing direct western connections, you benefit Weston and beyond, which would be critical if you wanted support from North Somerset.

Yes, it would be horribly expensive, but ultimately it's the largest airport in the west of England and it's the sort of investment that has to be made for the region to grow. 
 

[grahame]

I can't help but agree that "Bristol Airport" at Filton would have been the natural choice if the weight of good rail transport links for passengers had been an overriding priority.   But it wasn't.

I - err - floated the idea of rail entering the airport from the South with a smiley face - half to two thirds in jest (and had the junction facing south only!!!) . But there are / have been other examples of rail routes that are circuitous compared to the crow and / or road.   Journeys such as ... Helmsdale to Wick (and to Lybster). Bristol to Frome.  Cardiff to Weston-super-mare. Taunton and places north and east thereof to Barnstaple. Exmouth to Dawlish.   So MetroWest phase 4 - Avonmouth to Bristol Airport, alternate trains via Clifton Down and via Henbury might be rather attractive.   Which reminds me - another circuitous route - Temple Meads to Clifton Down by train - surely no-one would use that!!   

[johnneyw]

This is the problem when an announcement is made that is in fact little more than a general declaration of intent with scant detail or substance but sounding all very dynamic and impressive. It will be interesting to see if it turns out to be just another blind alley or not. Clearly an airport with Bristol's expansion plans will need greater access provision than one road. I think it was the transport journalist Simon Calder who, a while back, pointed out that Bristol Airport's biggest competitive disadvantage as compared to the big players is the absence of a rail connection. Even Exeter has an advantage there.

[simonw]

About time that Bristol Airport got an Act of Parliament for a rail line to Long Ashton, or Nailsea. Create a company with North Somerset, Bristol and Network Rail and borrow the money over 25 years to run the development.

Running a service every 15 minutes may require double tracking of this line, but I am sure the parties involved could afford it.

[John R]

Any route via Yatton is a non starter as its too much of a double back to the airport for Bristol traffic, which is always going to be the flow large enough to justify a rail link. And any thought of building a deep station box is surely going to render the project hopelessly uneconomic.

If Bristol had wanted a rail connected airport it could have chosen Filton. It didn't, and will have to live with an airport that is at best fairly inconvenient to get to from just about any direction by road.

Might sound counter-intuitive, but Temple Meads to Yatton only takes 15 minutes at present, so you could continue to the airport and still be faster than the 30 minute airport bus. Furthermore, by allowing direct western connections, you benefit Weston and beyond, which would be critical if you wanted support from North Somerset.

Yes, it would be horribly expensive, but ultimately it's the largest airport in the west of England and it's the sort of investment that has to be made for the region to grow. 
 

Once you've added the reversal or extremely sharp curve there would only be a few minutes in it. And unless you offer a turn up and go frequency similar to the current bus (every 10 mins), it's going to be no better a facility than the current bus. (And if you did you'd probably need to substantially upgrade the line from Bristol to Yatton adding further cost.)

As for the south facing connections, the volume couldn't remotely justify a rail link. Think how many years it has taken for the western facing connection to LHR to get momentum, and that has millions of potential and existing passengers. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

About time that Bristol Airport got an Act of Parliament for a rail line to Long Ashton, or Nailsea. Create a company with North Somerset, Bristol and Network Rail and borrow the money over 25 years to run the development.

Running a service every 15 minutes may require double tracking of this line, but I am sure the parties involved could afford it.

Good luck with that one. 

[simonw]

Do I think anything will happen regarded a long term, proper solution for Bristol Airport? No!

Bristol Airport is a private company, and as such should work with external groups and companies to pursue its business, such as helping passengers to and from its business (airport).

At the moment it likes cars and buses to do this, but if it wants 25-40% more customers, then it had better start planning how the roads in South Bristol can handle the growth, or move to another form of transport.

[Noggin]

Do I think anything will happen regarded a long term, proper solution for Bristol Airport? No!

Bristol Airport is a private company, and as such should work with external groups and companies to pursue its business, such as helping passengers to and from its business (airport).

At the moment it likes cars and buses to do this, but if it wants 25-40% more customers, then it had better start planning how the roads in South Bristol can handle the growth, or move to another form of transport.

Bristol Airport might be a private company, but it is effectively a public utility, used by a large number of business and private travellers from across the South West each year, plus about 3,000 people work there. So it's very much the role of the state to provide adequate transport links, in the same way that we provide them to places like Cribbs Causeway, Cabot Circus, Bristol Zoo etc.

Furthermore, easy access by air underpins much of our economy, particularly financial services, IT, manufacturing, film and TV and of course tourism. So again, it's very much the role of the state to do what it can to make it easier to travel to and from our region in order to secure and grow the economy. It might not be rational, but having a decent rail link to the airport is taken my much of the world as an indicator of whether a region is a 'serious' place or just a backwater.

Finally, we all know that a bus, however luxurious, is not an adequate substitute for a train, particularly for those with luggage, travellers who do not speak English etc. So even if the journey times were the same, you'd expect to see a far greater use of rail.
Furthermore, research has show time and time again that changing from rail to bus is massively off-putting, so if you could have trains through to Bath, Severn Beach line you'd expect to see numbers jump further.

[simonw]

I agree, but my point was that as a private company it should take a lead, with local councils and transport companies to improve connections to its airport.

A lot will depend on North Somerset and Bristol development plans in the area, and what transport infrastructure those plans will need. Bristol Airport will need to work within this environment.

[Bmblbzzz]

Finally, we all know that a bus, however luxurious, is not an adequate substitute for a train, particularly for those with luggage, travellers who do not speak English etc. So even if the journey times were the same, you'd expect to see a far greater use of rail.
Furthermore, research has show time and time again that changing from rail to bus is massively off-putting, so if you could have trains through to Bath, Severn Beach line you'd expect to see numbers jump further.

Perhaps, but the airport bus works pretty well. And of course it takes you straight to Temple Meads. The odd thing about the current airport bus service is that it although it is obviously an airport service, it tries to combine this with an attempt at being a town bus; in addition to serving the airport, bus and rail stations, it makes a couple of stops in Bedminster Down and on the A38. I presume these are to meet some sort of minimum service commitment to locations that would not justify a bus of their own, as I've only once or twice seen anyone get off there (and never, AFAIR, on).

As for changing from bus to train, the last few times I've been used either LGW or LHR (but I'm happy to say this hasn't been for a few years) or in fact airports overseas, I've always found it easier to take a bus all the way. In the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), this would be a NX coach from Bristol to one of those airports; overseas it might be the equivalent in that country or a glorified town bus like our Airport Flyer. But in all cases it's more convenient and cheaper than a train, even were a train is possible. Which is a shame, as I'd prefer a train. 

From which I conclude that (potential) passengers in or heading for Bristol itself are not really the ones to ask about the relative merits of bus or train to Brizzle Internationlel. The ones it will/would/could/might benefit are those heading further afield. 

[TonyK]

There is no real engineering reason to stop a tram line being build from Parson Street, roughly following the A38, though. Manchester and Sheffield trams cope with similar gradients. The problem really is the Elfan in the room. Cllr ap Rees is a road builder to the core, and mentions trams only so that he can later dismiss them.

[Bmblbzzz]

Didn't know anything about him, so googled. I wonder if he'd be interested in setting up a helicopter shuttle from the airport to WsM?