Bristol connections: Metro, Bus Rapid Transit, PTE, ITA and local councils - discussion

[whole diary]

[trainer]

How about this for Bristol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translohr

Lookes more like a tram and much more enviromentally freindlier than the rapidbus transit scheme currently proposed which more than likely use FTR^▸ (Fitness To Run) vehicles like we have in Swansea at the moment.

Might be cheaper to install as well.

I hope this is not taken up.  This rubber-tyred hybrid so-called 'tram' is installed in several French cities and most are now un-installing them and going over to the real thing having wasted their money trying to save it by not putting rails down.  The surface on which the tyres run wears down and has to be replaced expensively. There were many problems getting the systems to work, I read in 'Todays Railways Europe' (which incidentally ceased reporting on them until they failed, as there was insufficient rail). Only Clermont-Ferand is keeping them, mainly because its huge tyre factory keeps the place in employment.  I have ridden it and found it has some advantages of a tram, but the ride still feels like a bus because of the rubber on concrete interface (sorry about jargon).  It may be better than guided bus: as I haven't ridden that, I can't say for sure.

[TonyK]

Having read the Translohr article some time back, I came to the conclusion that the disadvantages outweigh any possible benefit. Steel wheel on steel rail is the true way forward, and will happen one day in Bristol. It is a real shame that we have to gamble ^200 million first on a ponced-up bus route that isn't even ponced up any more.

I have never seen such concerted and organised opposition to any transport scheme in the past. Stop BRT2 organised a petition and e-petition (please sign if you haven't done so already), commissioned its own passenger survey, leafleted people in the dock area, and did so much more - still are doing. They hired an expert witness for the Public Inquiry, as well as submitting proofs of evidence, and look to have done a better job than the council. I am convinced that BRT^▸ (Bus Rapid Transit) and especially BRT2 influenced the outcome of the Mayoral election, given our red-trousered Mayor's stated antipathy to the scheme.

It may also influence the outcome of Thursday's local elections, although few of the wards up for grabs are on the route of Bust Rabid Transit. The big exception is Cabot ward, which includes the city centre, harbour and harbour railway, and Spike Island. It is the epicentre of Stop BRT2. The politics of the ward are usually as yellow as jaundiced custard, with 2 Lib Dem councillors, one of whom, Dr Mark Wright, is up for election. Their campaign website is rather silent on BRT, but whatever their personal views, they will be bound by party whip. Lib Dem leader Tim Kent is the principal author of the dog's breakfast that is BRT, having been cabinet member for transport prior to George Ferguson's victory last November.He is one of the very few people in Bristol who thinks BRT is a good idea, so is hiighly unlikely to tolerate criticism of his pet scheme from his own side. Opinion in the area seems to be that Mark Wright is a general all-round good egg and a good councillor, but that BRT is too big an issue to ignore. The only one of the four candidates in Cabot to have voiced unequivocal opposition to BRT2 running through the harbour is the Green party's Charlie Bolton. There are murmurings that it may be best to leave tribal loyalties behind for this year, run the risk of being spoken to by men in sandals, and vote Green, even if it does mean having to put up with a diet of lentils and lectures about carbon footprints, wind panels and solar turbines for the next 3 years. For once, Thursday's election is likely to be interesting. Sadly, I am disenfranchised, as my ward doesn't come up for 2 years.

Spike Island is home to Aardman Animation. I am surprised we have not yet seen a short feature-film such as "Wallace and Gromit Oppose BRT", or "Shaun the Sheep Says NO!".

[anthony215]

I think tram-trains would be good for some of the lines around Bristol in particular if they can offer quick cross-city links.

Cardiff has been looking at using tram-trains so they can re-open and extend some lines around the Cardiff area using on street running. Hopefully the welsh government will proceed with these schemes if westminster gives us tax raising powers including the ability for wales to borrow money.

An example is a line from Coryton and a new park and ride site at Jc32 of the M4 to Cardiff Bay and the new sports villiage along with some new stations at Callaghan square which has a good few big names set up call centres there of have large offices such as British Gas etc and this extends over to Cardiff Central

It does give you an example of what can be done to the area surrounding Bristol Tempe Meads station.

Also if we do get  tram-trains running on some lines in south wales it would make it easier for Bristol to introduce them since you guys can just point at us and see how sucessful it is.

Now all i want to see is trams return to Swansea rather than this ftr thing

[TonyK]

Well said, Anthony! There is no doubting the upheaval that comes with the introduction of any street-running tramway. I have been following the expansion of Manchester Metrolink in another place, and my home town of Oldham has been ravaged for the last 4 years, as have Rochdale and Ashton under Lyme. Oldham had no rail connection for 3 years, which led to many complaints, all of which stopped when the first tram ran.

In engineering terms, Bristol would be a very good place to introduce tram-trains. Much of the hard work for mainline rail will be done during electrification and four-tracking, a particular interest of mine. The bridge over the Harbour into Temple Meads still retains the right turn into about Plot 6, which used to lead on into the Harbour via the bridge by the Grosvenot and Redcliffe caves, and the NCL yard, now covered in offices. Plot 6 would be a wonderful place to build a proper local bus station, with a tram-train stop included. The line could then be routed by any of a number of options towards the city centre, taking the one involving the least utility movement, then onwards to Broadmead and Cabot Circus, before retuning either via Temple Circus of Old Market back to Plot 6. The route is relatively level, and would be well within the ability of something like Blackpool's new Flexity trams, although the chosen model will obviously have to be main-line capable too. It would mean chaos for a couple of years, although not as bad as we have had for other reasons, but it would only have to be done once.

CAardiff beat us to an arena, a sports stadium, and the reopening of a few railway lines. Let's be first at something, for once.

[swrural]

@FTN,
If you mean returning via Baldwin St, Bristol Bridge, and 'Temple Circus' (that was a new one for an old retrograde like me), then I'm with you.  I guessed that your alternative route was just an 'out and back' to the shops via Old Market.  The latter route has merit but I feel the first has greater appeal as a commuter facility as well.  I would like to see a dual line so that one can access the Centre (Broad Quay junction, etc) in one hit or the shops in one hit, rather than a Great Way Round.  Proposals up to now have been a one way system (e.g. BRT^▸ (Bus Rapid Transit)) which is spoiling the Bristol ship for a ha'poth of tar.

As a final point, now that the concept of an inner ring road race track is no longer required, I see no reason why the inner lane cannot be reserved for trams and buses (and taxis even) .  This works very well in Amsterdam and other cities.

[TonyK]

No, swrural, I had grander [plans in mind, following the ill-starred Avon Metro route, at least in part. From the exit to the bold new transport hub, I would strike out around the Grosvenor and the George hotels, or even between them, on a new tram-only route into Redcliffe Way. Now, those bookish coves at the Redcliffe Forum have even loftier plans than my pipe dreams, and want to see the dual carriageway past that fairest, goodliest etc church closed in favour of a traffic-free promenade. I'm sure they could be persuaded to have tram tracks on the very far side, along Portwall lane. From there, I would cross the Bascule Bridge into the Grove, and onward to Princes Street, before turning right  for the centre. If no-one was looking, I would add a crafty left turn across Prince Street bridge, then into the Harbour railway, to join eventually with Portishead.

The route through the centre would see buses and trams only on the eastern side, passing the Cenotaph will all due deference, and into Nelson Street, which would be closed to all other traffic. There are plans already afoot to remodel the centre along similar lines to accommodate the awful Bust Rabid Transit. Private vehicles would cross the centre on an extended bit of Baldwin Street, using the roads on the Hippodrome side.

At Union Street, we would make the left turn to reach the Horsefair, so heading back to Temple Way.

There are options, as much of the area around the central fire station at Temple Back is due for a bit of redevelopement. The line could cut through there to Counterslip, then on to Victoria Street and Baldwin Street, or even St Nicholas Street. Or the return could head along Old Market, to return to Temple Meads via the Dings - raising the prospect of rebirth for St Philips station.

[anthony215]

I havent been able to find any reports online but are their any reports from the time when Bristol was looking at returning trams to the area?

Considering all the delays etc and the uk government wants more issues to be devolved to local regions maybe someone can persuade Mr Osbourne and Cameron etc to allow Bristol to borrow money to pay for a tram system rather than BRT^▸ (Bus Rapid Transit).

Ity would certainly help the government show the other citries in the uk what they are missing. Just like how the Welsh Government have come up with something crafty and are using the whole issue of Scottish independance to try and get westminster to devolve powers to Cardiff.

Maybe perhaps the welsh government can by brand new emu's and let you guys in Bristol have the class 315's we were supposed to be getting

[Red Squirrel]

Considering all the delays etc and the uk government wants more issues to be devolved to local regions maybe someone can persuade Mr Osbourne and Cameron etc to allow Bristol to borrow money to pay for a tram system rather than BRT^▸ (Bus Rapid Transit).

I don't think the political juggernaut quite works that way, sadly. Bristol went for a cheap, second-rate solution because our leaders lacked the courage to hold out for the thing the majority want - light rail - and now we must live with the consequences. Sadly I can't see us escaping the Bonkers Rusty Transit.

It would certainly help the government show the other citries in the uk what they are missing. Just like how the Welsh Government have come up with something crafty and are using the whole issue of Scottish independance to try and get westminster to devolve powers to Cardiff.

Bristol's problem is that it is not a capital city (even if it is bigger and significantly more economically important than Cardiff). Bristol doesn't even cover a large part of Bristol, and I rather dispair that the Dibleys (South Dibley, Bath and North East Dibley and North Dibley) will hamstring every effort Bristol ever makes to sort out its transport.

[swrural]

No, swrural, I had grander [plans in mind,

(Multo snippo....) then...

There are options, as much of the area around the central fire station at Temple Back is due for a bit of redevelopement. The line could cut through there to Counterslip, then on to Victoria Street and Baldwin Street, or even St Nicholas Street. Or the return could head along Old Market, to return to Temple Meads via the Dings - raising the prospect of rebirth for St Philips station.

Geographically, not many of your extensions, differ substantially from my more direct routing.

If you think of a tram leaving Plot 6 (oh, by the way, I am assuming you agree with my dual line requirement) my lines go along Victoria Street and turn into Baldwin St until Broad Quay is reached.  Nobody working in the Redcliff(e) St area has very far to walk, either from the station itself (just walk) or from the envisaged Counterslip junction stop.

In Baldwin St, at the Welsh Back stop, both office and tourist pax can access the Old City and St Peter's / Castle Street parkland area.

At the end of Baldwin St, at the Broad Quay stop, tourists will enjoy the walk further along Narrow Quay to the M shed and other central attractions while the many office staff will have but short walks.  My lines cross to St Augustine's Parade (or don't, but I suspect a stop north east of Colston St will suit everyone better towards Xmas Steps) and then forge on past Lewins Mead to the Horsefair, and then, well, then the rest is pretty much the same but I do not favour your other excursion, wandering around Midland Road.  I do favour making the Old Market stop actually in Old Market instead of buried down on the underpass.  I would of course like anything that destroyed the underpass.

If St Philips station is to be revived, I assume you envisaged the Midland Railway to Yate also being revived and the route to Bath as well via Mangotsfield.  I could go for that, but prefer a line that goes straight through the Dings, as the old one did (still does really) and terminates by the Floating Harbour, merely requiring a walk across the bridge to Plot 6.  Unfortunately BCC^» (Bristol City Council - about) has allowed a new office block to be built there on Avon Street so we'll just have to knock that down again.

Something like that anyway.

[anthony215]

Such a shame the plug was pulled on the Bristol supertram project little doubt in my mind that it would have been a sucess and more than likely if it was up and running today we would be on this forum calling for more expansion to the network.

[Red Squirrel]

...my lines go along Victoria Street...

I remember reading somewhere (sorry I can't quote a source) that IKB^▸ (Isambard Kingdom Brunel) originally wanted to build his terminus at Bristol Bridge - but in much the same way that the London termini were banished to the edge of town, so was Temple Meads. You can understand it really; who knew this system of transport would catch on?

It's interesting to speculate how the connection with the Bristol & Exeter would have developed if he had had his way - possibly Bristol may have ended up with two central stations, Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Bristol Bridge. I doubt St Phillips would have happened.

Victoria St was built as a consequence of Temple Meads' success;  the Victorian town planners obliterated a great chunk of Temple St and some of St Thomas St to create a direct route from town to the station - in pretty much the way Brunel would have done if they'd let him.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Victoria St was built as a consequence of Temple Meads' success;  the Victorian town planners obliterated a great chunk of Temple St and some of St Thomas St to create a direct route from town to the station - in pretty much the way Brunel would have done if they'd let him.

... and the Luftwaffe obliterated much of what was left ... 

[swrural]

We lunched recently at the old Fish Market Thai restaurant / pub on Baldwin St (recommended, excellent real beer too).  They wanted me to take a bus back to TM^‡(resolve) (due to the 'old trouble' in the left ankle) but I insisted on walking.  It reminded me of the very short distances involved and why I don't see the need for a new tram to go all around the houses, as it were.

Luftwaffe get a lot of blame for what actually BCC^» (Bristol City Council - about) did in the Victoria St area.  There is however just enough left, such as the Shakespeare pub to give a flavour of what was once in the area.

My years of experience of using Amsterdam trams is such that I can almost hear the ding of the warning as a tram rounds the corner at Bristol Bridge and glides down past St Nicholas into Baldwin St.  Why on earth anyone with an ounce of Bristol blood would want to spend any time, out on a draughty Patchway shopping mall, I really cannot imagine, especially with vast retail opportunities within yards of where I am writing about.  The restored city (still some way to go) is a jewel, simple as that. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

The restored city (still some way to go) is a jewel, simple as that. 

It is indeed - but it was still decimated by the Luftwaffe. 

(Alright: see also Dresden - purely in the interests of impartiality. )

[Red Squirrel]

Luftwaffe get a lot of blame for what actually BCC^» (Bristol City Council - about) did in the Victoria St area. 

Hear, hear! Not just Victoria St, either; the missing quarter of the mediaeval city (Mary-le-Port St area) was heaviliy damaged by bombing, but it took a combination of local and national politicians and a cartel of the big chain stores to eradicate the street plan - which in many ways is more important that the buildings that stood on it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Park,_Bristol (which, I note, was largely written by someone calling themself 'RedSquirrel'):