Minimising your fare - or fare dodging?

[whole diary]

[Phil]

You beat me to it Graham, I was about to ask the same thing.

What about places like Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Melksham and other tiny rural outposts* which have little in the way of facilities beyond a platform and a shelter?

Are you seriously suggesting that company policy dictates that persons joining the train at these locations are not covered by insurance in the unfortunate event of an accident until such time as they have been sold a valid ticket for their journey?

If this is indeed the case, then I think warning signs at each location should be put up to that effect as soon as possible - and in the meantime, the press should certainly be made aware so that people can be warned about the risky position they are placing themselves in by joining a train at these locations.



*bonus point for spotting the odd one out here. It's quite difficult, as witnessed by the fact that even FGW^▸ (First Great Western) itself seems incapable of realising that one of them is a significant centre of population.

[super tm]

The OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) was referring to fare dodging.  Joined from those stations which do not ticket facilities you cannot be guilty of fare dodging so you would be covered.

Dont forget if the insurance company wanted to go down the line of not paying out they would have to prove you were intending to dodge your fare.  Very difficult to prove unless you already had convictions previously.  So in practice you would be covered if you did not hold a ticket even if you did board from a station with ticket issuing facilities.

[Tim]

Another thing to be aware of is, if you are fare dodging you probably are not covered by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) insurance in the event of an accident,as you do not actually have a valid ticket to be there in the first place

Don't understand this statement. I have a ticket and couldn't care less if I am covered by insurance or not.  If I injur myself and it was my fault, noone pays out.  If it is the TOCs fault and I sue them and and they are found liable they pay up regardless of whether or not they have insurance or not.

Are you telling me that if a train crashes and 10 people die and it is the fault of the TOC, only the 9 victims with valid tickets get compensation and the family of the tenth chap who is travelling on a peak time train with an off peak ticket get nothing?

Doesn't ring true to me.

[moonrakerz]

if the cards are ever used fraudulently, it is the credit card and the retailer that is responsible not me.  If you use chip and pin, technically you have to prove it was not you and you did not disclose your pin to anyone. 

Your first statement is quite correct.

The second one, I'm afraid, is not.
The Banking Code says quite clearly that the onus is on the card issuer to prove that the card holder acted improperly.

"12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently
or without reasonable care, your liability for your card
being misused will be limited as follows.................." (My highlighting)

Depending on the circumstances, the max you may be liable for is ^50.

However, there is a growing tendency for the banks to try and make it the other way round. Their first move is always to blame the card holder. There was a piece on "Moneybox" on Radio 4  last Saturday about this.
If you get this sort of response from a card issuer you should immediately complain to The Financial Ombudsman.

[dog box]

Fare Dodging is ...boarding a train with out  intention to pay for the journey you intent to make.. not being on a peak train with an off peak ticket or being on a train without a ticket because you boarded from a station without ticket purchasing facilities.

[JayMac]

Fare Dodging is ...boarding a train with out  intention to pay for the journey you intent to make.. not being on a peak train with an off peak ticket or being on a train without a ticket because you boarded from a station without ticket purchasing facilities.

Knowingly travelling 'peak' with an 'off peak' ticket is still fare evasion in my book!

[John R]

The key word is "knowingly". I suspect many find themselves unknowingly with the wrong ticket. I bought a ticket at Paddington at 1444 this afternoon and the machine offered me a super off peak ticket, even though by that stage the 1445 was off the board and the next train was off peak only. Yes, the machine did state that it was only valid until the 1445 departure but how many would notice that if they are in a tearing hurry to catch the train.

That's the second time in a few weeks that a TM^‡(resolve) has offered me an incorrect ticket at Paddington, though last time it tried to charge me ^30 too much!

[Ollie]

In a dream world the machine would let you pick a train to travel on and give you journey print outs. And it could probably be done with extra programming I reckon?

Maybe I am dreaming too much..

[Mookiemoo]

if the cards are ever used fraudulently, it is the credit card and the retailer that is responsible not me.  If you use chip and pin, technically you have to prove it was not you and you did not disclose your pin to anyone. 

Your first statement is quite correct.

The second one, I'm afraid, is not.
The Banking Code says quite clearly that the onus is on the card issuer to prove that the card holder acted improperly.

"12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently
or without reasonable care, your liability for your card
being misused will be limited as follows.................." (My highlighting)

Depending on the circumstances, the max you may be liable for is ^50.

However, there is a growing tendency for the banks to try and make it the other way round. Their first move is always to blame the card holder. There was a piece on "Moneybox" on Radio 4  last Saturday about this.
If you get this sort of response from a card issuer you should immediately complain to The Financial Ombudsman.

But if the public had not sleep walked into chip and pin it would be non issue.............

Even my mother - having been through what she went through - believes in chip and pin - I despair

[Mookiemoo]

if the cards are ever used fraudulently, it is the credit card and the retailer that is responsible not me.  If you use chip and pin, technically you have to prove it was not you and you did not disclose your pin to anyone. 

Your first statement is quite correct.

The second one, I'm afraid, is not.
The Banking Code says quite clearly that the onus is on the card issuer to prove that the card holder acted improperly.

"12.12 Unless we can show that you have acted fraudulently
or without reasonable care, your liability for your card
being misused will be limited as follows.................." (My highlighting)

Depending on the circumstances, the max you may be liable for is ^50.

However, there is a growing tendency for the banks to try and make it the other way round. Their first move is always to blame the card holder. There was a piece on "Moneybox" on Radio 4  last Saturday about this.
If you get this sort of response from a card issuer you should immediately complain to The Financial Ombudsman.

But if the public had not sleep walked into chip and pin it would be non issue.............

Even my mother - having been through what she went through - believes in chip and pin - I despair

The reason is my father was called Donald and he always signed as Donald Duck not Donald Jones - no one ever picked it up.............

She wont accept that they could have claimed back every single transaction he made because a signature = liability on the retailer and card issuer.   Actually it wasnt that - if the check our staff/train managers did full ticket checks/sig checking then its a moot point

[bobg]

In a dream world the machine would let you pick a train to travel on and give you journey print outs. And it could probably be done with extra programming I reckon?

Maybe I am dreaming too much..

The Deutsche Bahn machines in Germany let you do just that!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks very much for that, bobg - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!

Do the German railways also use the Scheidt & Bachmann machines we have here, by any chance?

[bobg]

I'm not sure exactly, as there are a number of different types of machine, but I shall look when I next go past the station.
According to the German version of Wikipedia, there are a number of machines in use, made by a number of manufacturers
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrkartenautomat
 List of ticket machine makers in Germany:

    * Atron electronic GmbH in Markt Schwaben
    * elgeba Ger^tebau GmbH in Bad Honnef (vorwiegend Entwerter)
    * H^ft & Wessel AG in Hannover
    * ICA Traffic GmbH in Dortmund
    * Scheidt & Bachmann in M^nchengladbach
    * Sedlbauer AG in Grafenau

[bobg]

Do the German railways also use the Scheidt & Bachmann machines we have here, by any chance?

I was at M^nchen Hbf over the weekend and checked:

The simpler machine (not touch screen) for local and regional journeys was made by Scheidt & Bachmann, and the ticket machine for the long-distance traion, with details of offers and the ability to print of timetables, to make reservations and to check the prices of different services was made by H^ft & Wessel.