Minimising your fare - or fare dodging?

[whole diary]

[Glovidge]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

[Mookiemoo]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

Does that not class as fare evasions rather than cheap travelling?

[Glovidge]

not if you're willing to pay for the ticket when/if the train manager comes along?

Incidentally I'd like to praise the efforts of a member of staff at a South Wales railway station but don't know how to (as I don't know which company are responsible for station staff/ station resource protection assistants in South Wales)

They went the extra mile and it was appreciated. I'd just like to compliment instead of complain

[Zoe]

not if you're willing to pay for the ticket when/if the train manager comes along?

From the condtions of carriage:
"2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid
for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make."

If facilities are available you MUST use purchase your ticket before boarding the train.

[John R]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

Does that not class as fare evasions rather than cheap travelling?

"One way of travelling cheap" certainly implies that there is an intent to avoid paying the proper fare for the journey, rather than use a legitimate way of buying the cheapest fare for the journey. So yes, it's fare evasion, and explains why some of our regular contributors feel that anyone boarding a train without a ticket is a fare dodger (not a view I subscribe to, but let's not reopen that well worn debate.)     

[Mookiemoo]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

Does that not class as fare evasions rather than cheap travelling?

"One way of travelling cheap" certainly implies that there is an intent to avoid paying the proper fare for the journey, rather than use a legitimate way of buying the cheapest fare for the journey. So yes, it's fare evasion, and explains why some of our regular contributors feel that anyone boarding a train without a ticket is a fare dodger (not a view I subscribe to, but let's not reopen that well worn debate.)     

Exactly

I prefer to bu my tickets on the train for two reasons:

1. Its quicker for me and more convenient - on the train im a captive audience and with my journey time being over an hour a day more than it was five years ago - I really do not want to allow even more time for my journey so I can get the ticket from the ticket office!
2. I only do admin once a week and try to avoid transferring money from the business to me if possible (less tax) - so by wednesday it is possible if I try to buy a ticket my card will be declined if its in the ticket office because of the real time check.  But if I do it on the train - (a) it will process and if I havent put the funds in in time it still goes through anyway and (2) it takes about a week for the transactions from the avantix machines to actually clear the bank - all this save me the embarassment of having a card declined.

Unfortunately, people getting on the train with the hope the TM^‡(resolve) doesnt wander through and therefore doesnt have to pay means that people like me are assumed to be fare dodgers.  So sorry - this is not trying to reduce the cost of travel but outright evasion

[Chris from Nailsea]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

As has already been pointed out, deliberately getting an early - or, more likely - a later train, on the basis that the ticket barriers will be open, without the need for a valid ticket, and in the hope that the train manager will not, for whatever reason, check tickets, is fraud / fare dodging: we do not condone it.

not if you're willing to pay for the ticket when/if the train manager comes along?

The question here is the intent: did you board that train, in the hope that you would not be asked to produce a valid ticket?  From your post, it would appear so - again, that would be fraud / fare dodging: we do not condone it.

If you were to actively seek out the train manager, as soon as you boarded the train, and ask to buy the relevant ticket, that could be another matter.

There are several other topics on this forum (in 'Fare's fair' in particular) which deal with the rules on ticketing, and which are well worth reading, to gain a wider understanding of this complex area.

[vacman]

If you are caught by an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) or BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) upon leaving the station you would be prosecuted for fare evasion!

[JayMac]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

In answer to yout topic question: Fare dodging, plain and simple.

And your assertion that TMs^‡(resolve) 'can't be bothered.....' is a bit of a sweeping statement. Where? If you've experienced a lack of ticket checking on a particular route or train, then bring it to the attention of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) concerned.

[John R]

One way of travelling cheap is to get an early or late train (ie when the ticket barriers are accessible without using a ticket) For some reason the train managers can't be bothered to do an early morning/ late night collection... (I can understand the late night reasons... drunk passengers are not worth the hassle)

In answer to yout topic question: Fare dodging, plain and simple.

And your assertion that TMs^‡(resolve) 'can't be bothered.....' is a bit of a sweeping statement. Where? If you've experienced a lack of ticket checking on a particular route or train, then bring it to the attention of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) concerned.

I agree completely with your first point.

But as to the second point, if I brought it to the attention of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) every time I travelled for an hour on an HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) without my ticket being checked it would be at least 7 times a week (based on a small sample of around 400 journeys).   

[Super Guard]

2. I only do admin once a week and try to avoid transferring money from the business to me if possible (less tax) - so by wednesday it is possible if I try to buy a ticket my card will be declined if its in the ticket office because of the real time check.  But if I do it on the train - (a) it will process and if I havent put the funds in in time it still goes through anyway and (2) it takes about a week for the transactions from the avantix machines to actually clear the bank - all this save me the embarassment of having a card declined.

While I understand your reasons for doing it, is this not actually classed as fraud of some sort?  I always thought it was a type of fraud to write a cheque for example, when you know you have insufficient funds at that time, even though in theory you have 3 days to clear funds to your account?

Out of interest are you always offered chip&pin or are you ever required to sign?  Just thinking that if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ever got round to downloading card transactions a little faster, and your card later declined via signature, FGW would not be covered and would suffer a financial loss.

As to the original question of the topic:  Fare Evasion - all day long.

[Mookiemoo]

2. I only do admin once a week and try to avoid transferring money from the business to me if possible (less tax) - so by wednesday it is possible if I try to buy a ticket my card will be declined if its in the ticket office because of the real time check.  But if I do it on the train - (a) it will process and if I havent put the funds in in time it still goes through anyway and (2) it takes about a week for the transactions from the avantix machines to actually clear the bank - all this save me the embarassment of having a card declined.

While I understand your reasons for doing it, is this not actually classed as fraud of some sort?  I always thought it was a type of fraud to write a cheque for example, when you know you have insufficient funds at that time, even though in theory you have 3 days to clear funds to your account?

Out of interest are you always offered chip&pin or are you ever required to sign?  Just thinking that if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ever got round to downloading card transactions a little faster, and your card later declined via signature, FGW would not be covered and would suffer a financial loss.

As to the original question of the topic:  Fare Evasion - all day long.

No - they would be covered.  Mybank honours all debit/credit card transactions done in those circumstances - I just get stroppy letters from them.

All my cards are chip and signature anyway except my cash card - if you tell them you are disabled and request chip and signature, they HAVE to give you one.  They dont want to, but they have to.  I even had virgin try to tell me if I got a chip and signature then I would not be entitled to airmiles - a little suggestion that the resulting headlines - "virgin penalise the disabled by removing account benefits" or words to the effect would not go down well.  I am mildly dyslexic - not enough to really cause me any grief - but enough for me to honestly say I have a disability.

Why do I do this?  If the cards are ever used fraudulently, it is the credit card and the retailer that is responsible not me.  If you use chip and pin, technically you have to prove it was not you and you did not disclose your pin to anyone.  My mum was in such a situation - luckily she could actually prove she was in liverpool at the time the card was alledgedly used in London.  Even then the bank tried to suggest that she'd given her pin out - the only saving grace was she used the same card 45 minutes after the fraudulent transaction thereby proving effectively that she had not leant the card. 

It is because of this they (1) ont want to give out chip and signature and (2) they introduced chip and pin in the first place except they told the unassuming public it was for their own benefit and more secure.

But going back to the original point - half the time I have no idea what my account balance is - first I normally know is when I cant get cash out of the cash machine!  So do I ever KNOW there are insufficient funds - never.  However, not once has a single cheque or card transaction ever been declined for the retailer after being processed.

However cheques now - BTW^▸ (by the way) - clear the same day - I got caught out by that one the other week.  Got my nails done - wrote a cheque on the Thursday - figured that even if banked on the FRiday I didnt need to worry until the Sunday.  WRONG.  Luckily my nail technician has been doing my nails for five years!

I know its not a very scientific system for an accountant/project manager - but it works for me!

[Super Guard]

I thought that a cheque would only debit your account same day if they happened to share the exact same branch and pay-in at the same branch as the cheque was issued.  Funny how they still make you wait 3/4 working days to draw funds the other way round though 

Yes FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is covered via Chip & Sig, and Chip & Pin, and as you say, the horrors of card fraud were once shown on Watchdog or Panorama as to how fraudsters could use technology to get hold of your pin without your knowledge, and the banks then claimed they MUST have given it out as C&P is 100% safe - yeah whatever.

If the chip&pin terminal fails and the 'swipe' option on Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) is used rather than chip&sig I am not so sure FGW would be covered on decline, unless you have a friendly bank which accepts every transaction!

[dog box]

Another thing to be aware of is, if you are fare dodging you probably are not covered by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) insurance in the event of an accident,as you do not actually have a valid ticket to be there in the first place

[grahame]

Another thing to be aware of is, if you are fare dodging you probably are not covered by the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) insurance in the event of an accident,as you do not actually have a valid ticket to be there in the first place

Does that mean that if I board the train at a station with no staff and a failed ticket machine, I am uninsured until the conductor has sold me a ticket?