Fare Question

[whole diary]

[DevonTrains2008]

Hi

On Saturday I travelled from Exeter - Reading with a Super Off-Peak Return, which means my return section was valid for 1 month.  On my return (today - sunday) the gates at Reading were open, my ticket was not inspected and the gates at Exeter were also open.  Would it be possible to use the return ticket again if I bought a single from EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) - RDG^‡(resolve)?  Also,  regarding the validity of Super Off-Peak on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services - which trains/times are they valid?

Look forward to a reply

[Btline]

I expect the "official" answer is: No - that's fare dodging.

But I expect the practical answer is: Yes - as they can't stop you/prove otherwise. If you were to, it would serve FGW^▸ (First Great Western) right for woeful ticket checking. Barriers should be manned for longer, guards should make regular ticket checks and there should be occasional random RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)).

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm. That puts me in a rather difficult position, as an admin on this forum.

Obviously, we do not condone fare dodging. 

[Btline]

Is this fare dodging:

I buy a Off Peak Return ticket for A - C. It involves a change at B. However, on the way back to A, I decide to get off at B and get picked up instead.

A few weeks later, I need to travel from B to A, and I use the return portion of my A to C ticket (still in date).

[DevonTrains2008]

When are super off peak valid exactly? and is a single 1/2 price of a return?

[inspector_blakey]

On Saturday I travelled from Exeter - Reading with a Super Off-Peak Return, which means my return section was valid for 1 month.  On my return (today - sunday) the gates at Reading were open, my ticket was not inspected and the gates at Exeter were also open.  Would it be possible to use the return ticket again if I bought a single from EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) - RDG^‡(resolve)? 

No two ways about it, I'm afraid, that's pure and simple fare evasion. The ticket entitles you to make that journey once, and you have made the journey, so regardless of whether or not it was cancelled it is no longer valid for travel.

Is this fare dodging:

I buy a Off Peak Return ticket for A - C. It involves a change at B. However, on the way back to A, I decide to get off at B and get picked up instead.

A few weeks later, I need to travel from B to A, and I use the return portion of my A to C ticket (still in date).

Assuming the ticket permits break of journey on the return  journey, this is entirely legitimate. You have simply broken your return journey as permitted.

Seeing as this thread is to do with a specific ticketing query, I have moved it into Fares Fair from Across the West.

[Mookiemoo]

On Saturday I travelled from Exeter - Reading with a Super Off-Peak Return, which means my return section was valid for 1 month.  On my return (today - sunday) the gates at Reading were open, my ticket was not inspected and the gates at Exeter were also open.  Would it be possible to use the return ticket again if I bought a single from EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) - RDG^‡(resolve)? 

No two ways about it, I'm afraid, that's pure and simple fare evasion. The ticket entitles you to make that journey once, and you have made the journey, so regardless of whether or not it was cancelled it is no longer valid for travel.

I agree

but a bit like my experiment last year where I worked out how much it cost me buying a season ticket rather than a Charlbury-RDG and RDG - RDG West pair.........

This summer when I was staying over due to the blockade I bought returns.  With the advent of the five day validity of the out portion of a return I *could* have saved approximately ^700 (I could pull the exact figure but its on my laptop and I cant be bothered booting it up) in six weeks by not re- using tickets  that were not gripped ....... and you cannot even put it down to familiarity as most of the Swansea guards are not regulars on the cotswold line.

One TM^‡(resolve) even checked n out of date ticket (I'd bought it the week before intending to travel two days later and then my plans changed - it was genuinely unused but it was only after the check I realised it was out of date)

Even barrier dont help that much - stick a ticket in a wallet thingy that seasons go in and see how many gate staff insist on you taking it out so they can tear the strip..........most dont.

Which comes back to my argument - get rid of barriers which are just damn inconvenient, get rid of barrier staff and actually do proper on train ticket checks.  Make the penalty for evasion  so huge that people dont chance it on the off chance of getting caught - im talking in the high hundreds if not thousands of pounds. And let people buy the ticket on the train........

[JayMac]

On Saturday I travelled from Exeter - Reading with a Super Off-Peak Return, which means my return section was valid for 1 month.  On my return (today - sunday) the gates at Reading were open, my ticket was not inspected and the gates at Exeter were also open.  Would it be possible to use the return ticket again if I bought a single from EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) - RDG^‡(resolve)? 

No two ways about it, I'm afraid, that's pure and simple fare evasion. The ticket entitles you to make that journey once, and you have made the journey, so regardless of whether or not it was cancelled it is no longer valid for travel.

Is this fare dodging:

I buy a Off Peak Return ticket for A - C. It involves a change at B. However, on the way back to A, I decide to get off at B and get picked up instead.

A few weeks later, I need to travel from B to A, and I use the return portion of my A to C ticket (still in date).

Assuming the ticket permits break of journey on the return  journey, this is entirely legitimate. You have simply broken your return journey as permitted.

Ah....but break of journey rules usually only allow completing your journey on the following morning after your break. A few weeks hence may be problematical. If your ticket has been 'gripped' on the C to B part of the journey with a date stamp then you may find yourself in trouble. And even if it hasn't been 'gripped' you are still breaking the rules. Quite how this is proved though....

[Btline]

That's what I thought. And most of the time it is just a quick flick of a biro!

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'll be giving some of you a 'quick flick of the biro' in a minute! 

Please do bear with us, while we sort out the implications of these "fare's fair"' questions?  Seriously, we do have to be aware of our legal responsibilities here, and being seen to be allowing, never mind encouraging, discussion of 'fare dodging / ticket laundering' on this forum could land us in very hot water!

Thanks, Chris. 

[JayMac]

That's what I thought. And most of the time it is just a quick flick of a biro!

I was in the process of offering a solution to folks who break the rules on ticket use on another thread, but it was locked (understandably as it was offering ways to break the rules) before I could post.

What we need is network wide ticket validation technology. You swipe your ticket (or smart card) at your start, break, and destination points. If it's valid you can travel. If your travelling from a remote station then you swipe your ticket onboard a train that has validation equipment installed. There is no need to use this technology to replace on board (human) checking. If a guard/TM^‡(resolve)/RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) finds you travelling with an unvalidated ticket then you are PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d. If TfL^» (Transport for London - about) can utilise a similar technology on their buses, then it can't be beyond the realms of possibilty for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to employ a similar system. Of course this would require some capital investment and a need for all the interested parties to sing from the same song sheet....something that, at the moment, is sadly lacking in 'UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Rail'.

I'm sure there will be posts that highlight problems in such a system, but please remember this forum is not here to condone rule breaking (Dear Mods: I hope that's a suitable footnote )

[Chris from Nailsea]

Now that, bignosemac, is an absolutely brilliant summary of the situation: thanks! 

[Btline]

What I get confused about is how travelling less than your ticket can be "dodging". Ok - it breaks the rules of the AP fare yes, but is it really serious?

But I will stop, as I don't want to get this forum into trouble. Besides, my biro has just run ou .

[JayMac]

What I get confused about is how travelling less than your ticket can be "dodging". Ok - it breaks the rules of the AP fare yes, but is it really serious?

But I will stop, as I don't want to get this forum into trouble. Besides, my biro has just run ou .

Seriousness don't come into it. Dropping litter is wrong and can be punished, driving at 35mph in a 30mph zone is wrong and can be punished. A democratic society dictates that we have laws/rules. Yes, those rules and laws may seem petty to the individual, particularly when said individual is caught out by them (I do laugh when I see speeders on 'Police! Stop!' type programmes trot out the line, 'why aren't you out catching proper crimimals?'). Occasionally rules need to be challenged to highlight their pettiness, however whilst said rules are in place you cannot use their 'pettiness' as a grounds for defence. By all means challenge rules that you may perceive to be wrong, but don't challenge them by breaking them....that's a short road to anarchy.

[inspector_blakey]

Ah....but break of journey rules usually only allow completing your journey on the following morning after your break. A few weeks hence may be problematical. If your ticket has been 'gripped' on the C to B part of the journey with a date stamp then you may find yourself in trouble. And even if it hasn't been 'gripped' you are still breaking the rules. Quite how this is proved though....

Afraid you're not entirely correct here; this is why...

The rules for break of journey depend on whether it's the outward or return portion of a ticket. Generally, the outward portion is valid only for one day; if you cannot reasonably complete your intended journey within one day then you may break it and resume it the following morning, ensuring that you do so before 1200. Equally, in most cases, you could break the journey through choice and complete it the same day, assuming there was no specific restriction applied to the ticket you held.

HOWEVER, the return portion of a period return is an entirely different kettle of fish, since it is valid for a month. In this situation you are entitled to break your journey and resume it at any time while the ticket is still valid. So you could quite legitimately stop off and stay with friends/relations for a few weeks on your way home before completing the journey. Or, indeed, in Btline's hypothetical situation, use the B to A portion of the journey some time later.

When travelling on an Advance ticket, there are no ifs, no buts, you use the ticket to travel from the point printed to the point printed on the train specified. Any deviation from that renders you liable to pay an excess fare at the very least.