Joining Short - re-opened

[whole diary]

[basset44]

Hi ALl,

Know its not right to travel short but can you book an advance say from Swansea and start at Cardiff where they are showing a change of train?

Trip in question is to Leominster no advance from Cardiff but are from Swansea

Basset

[John R]

In a word, no. Advance fares require you to do the whole journey. You might find a way around it, but it would not be legal.

[Mookiemoo]

One way which is still nto legal but more easy not to get caught - try looking for a Cardiff to Ludlow or Shrewsbury - Leominster has no barriers and I'm not even sure it is manned.  You should be able to find an advance for that at the same price.

If you get an officious ticket inspector he may question a person joining at Cardiff with a Swansea advance (and most likely your seat reservation will have been removed if you arent sitting in it by Cardiff) however there is little they can do to physically stop you getting off the train.

None of the above is legal but then if they will make rules ridiculous..............

[inspector_blakey]

Just a gentle reminder to all that this part of the forum isn't intended as a place for discussing tactics for circumventing/evading ticket restrictions and conditions.

I'm going to lock this temporarily and confer with the other mods. Will hopefully be back soon.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm. 

I'm sorry, but this forum cannot be seen to be encouraging 'fare dodging / ticket laundering', in whatever guise.  We have been criticised, quite severely, in the past, for allowing that to happen.

I therefore agree completely with inspector_blakey's action, and we'll get back to you further, 'soon'.

Chris. 

[grahame]

General 'official' statement ...

This board / forum has to work within the letter of the law, and byelaws too. And one of the things that means is that we cannot (legally) encourage, aid or condone others in breaking the laws / byelaws, even if those laws / bylaws are (in our view) inappropriately framed. And providing a public platform, to the extent that it helps  others break the law, to a new or previously unpublished 'scheme' would be considered aiding the breaking of the law.

However ...

We can state where we feel the law is an ass, and campaign for a change. We can talk about ways that are already in the public domain that others use to break the law. And we can be a point of explanation, pointing out which laws / byelaws are broken by actions / posssible actions that are raised for discussion.

This Thread

It's *very* borderline indeed - thanks to the moderators who were around during the night for picking up on the issues and moving it to give us time to look at it more generally.

Buying tickets for shorter journeys than have been made, with the purpose of using them to pass through gates, is a well known way that the rules are broken - in the public domain.  But specific routing suggestions that encourage (or appera to encourage it) probably aren't well know and shouldn't be posted.

Buying journeys for longer journeys that you take IS allowed on certain ticket types, is certainly not allowed on some others (Megatrain is often quoted) and is, frankly a grey area to me persoanlly on some others.  I'm told that the advanced fares cannot be used for a shorter journey, but the terms and conditions under which they are sold on the web site do NOT say that; I am going to quote 'the whole' here for critical consideration.

DESCRIPTION

Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.

VALIDITY

You must travel on the date, time and trains specified.

BOOKING

Can be booked up until the day before travel, subject to availability.

REFUNDS

No refunds available.

AMENDING YOUR BOOKING

Yes - date/time of tickets can be changed up until time of departure, subject to the payment of a GBP 10.00 fee per ticket per person and any difference in fares. If you amend your booking online or by telephone, you will be sold replacement tickets and should return your original tickets for refund.

DISCOUNTS

Yes - normal railcard and child discounts available

ROUTE

This ticket is only valid for travel on Great Western services only.

From personal experience (but a while back and the Ts and Cs may have changed), I can quote that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff clearly do believe that short journeys are not allowed. Scenario - a Melksham to London advanced ticket.  Train from Melksham, cancelled.  Instruction from National Rail Enquiry Centre was to wait for next train (12 hours / overnight, and they also refused to pay for accommodation overnight for a guest who did not live in the town) which was not acceptable. Drove at own expense to Swindon as only practical way to pick up the service from there.  Ticket failed to work barrier, and barrier staff very accusatory and aggressive - never mind the fact that is was due to FGW failure to run a timetabled train that we were there ...

The phrase "only valid for the date, time and trains specified" is also very interesting.  Reading that carefully, it means that if (let us say) I hold a ticket at 20:29 from Swindon to Paddington, but the train is delayed by half an hour, then FGW are within their rights to charge me a new fare.  It says "for the time specified" and not "for the train scheduled to run at the time specified" after all, and 21:00 is not 20:29 ...

The rules on this ARE very unclear in many ways, and I believe mis-stated in others. Fair game for discussion and where appropriate ridicule. But please don't advocate / encourage / provide new information sources to help people break them.

I believe that this post, and those from Chris and Inspector Blakey make it very clear that we do not condone the breaking of the rules.   However, all the information posted earlier in the thread is in the public domain so I am going to leave the test as it is, and invite posters who made prior comment to amend their posts if they wish.

[paul7575]

The National Rail version of the T&C for 'Advance' is quite explicit:

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

It seems FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (indeed most TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)) staff appear to be trained to apply the rules that National Rail shows.

FGW are causing a problem for themselves, they really ought to ensure that all the T&C sing from the same sheet...

However the same National Rail T&C go on to say:

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If, as a result, you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.

So any full cancellation should be dealt with as for any other railway problem, AFAICT^▸ (as far as I can tell). In the event of your booked train running late, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) you must still get that train, ie your ticket is valid for the booked train, not a precedeing late train that happens along at the time shown on the ticket.

Paul

[XPT]

From personal experience (but a while back and the Ts and Cs may have changed), I can quote that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff clearly do believe that short journeys are not allowed. Scenario - a Melksham to London advanced ticket.  Train from Melksham, cancelled.  Instruction from National Rail Enquiry Centre was to wait for next train (12 hours / overnight, and they also refused to pay for accommodation overnight for a guest who did not live in the town) which was not acceptable. Drove at own expense to Swindon as only practical way to pick up the service from there.  Ticket failed to work barrier, and barrier staff very accusatory and aggressive - never mind the fact that is was due to FGW failure to run a timetabled train that we were there ...

If the train was from Melksham was cancelled(the 1947 service to Swindon), it's obviously not your fault.  You drove at your own expense to Swindon to be able to board a train to London to continue your journey.   For the barrier staff at Swindon to be very accusatory and aggressive is just not on.  They could have easily checked that that service from Melksham was indeed cancelled.   And in my opinion, in these circumstances the ticket from Swindon-London should have been accepted even if you missed and were not on your booked train. 

To be informed that you would have to wait untill 0640 the next morning for the next train to Swindon to continue your journey is just absolutely bonkers.    And with no accommodation expenses provided for people who don't live in the area adds further insult to injury.  Absolute bonkers and extremely unfair to the innocent passengers. Some people for instance could have been on their way to Heathrow or Gatwick Airport for a flight.  What are they expected to do, miss their flight because they have to wait for the next available train the next morning?!  As that was the last train of the night from Melksham to Swindon(for London), FGW should have arranged for a taxi(or two or howver many necessary to accommodate all the passengers) to take passengers to Swindon so that they could continue their onward journey to Reading, London, or wherever they were travelling to.   They would also have to inform the ticket barrier staff at Swindon of this.  As well as provide passengers with a written note to explain the situation to the conductor onboard the train.   Some conductors just ask for and are happy with the customer just giving them the train ticket.  Whilst a fair amount of them(well over 50%) do also ask for the reservation tickets as well.    Whatever, they shouldn't really expect passengers to have to wait nearly twelve hours overnight for the next available scheduled train.   

[vacman]

Joining short is actually fare evasion, and heres, why, you are travelling from B to C but buying a ticket from A to C which is cheaper, therefore your are deliberately avoiding the correct fare for your journey which is from B to C, hope this makes sense.

[TerminalJunkie]

Joining short is actually fare evasion

...but only when you join at a station where you cannot break your journey.

Condition 16 of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) explicitly allows this.

[Phil]

hope this makes sense.

You want my honest response to that?   

[grahame]

... For the barrier staff at Swindon to be very accusatory and aggressive is just not on.  They could have easily checked that that service from Melksham was indeed cancelled ....

Agreed.  The lady with whom I was travelling - a customer of ours - swore she would never use the train again, and I really can't blame her.  And she's not been back to us since, either.  Not that she necessarily would, as once we're trained someone they're "good to go" and shouldn't need too many more courses.

To be informed that you would have to wait untill 0640 the next morning for the next train to Swindon to continue your journey is just absolutely bonkers.    And with no accommodation expenses provided for people who don't live in the area adds further insult to injury.  Absolute bonkers and extremely unfair to the innocent passengers.

I cannot but agree.  We were told what to do by the person who answered the rail enquiry number that's displayed at the station, without reference to anyone else;  with a need to get get on to London, I didn't stop to argue. More important at the time to ensure my client was sorted than to argue.

You mention ongoing airline connections - "what if they had missed".  Again, I agree but connections between air and rail, when they fail, are NOT the responsibility of the supplier of the first let of the transportation.   Train to airport gets seriously delayed (as might have happened this morning for passengers from Cornwall) and you won't find the airline taking you on tomorrow's flight instead.   Flight gets delayed and even if you allowed yourself 4 hours at Gatwick, if you've missed your advanced purchase you have to buy another.

Joining short is actually fare evasion

...but only when you join at a station where you cannot break your journey.

Condition 16 of the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) explicitly allows this.

What a silly system we have!

[JayMac]

Joining short is actually fare evasion, and heres, why, you are travelling from B to C but buying a ticket from A to C which is cheaper, therefore your are deliberately avoiding the correct fare for your journey which is from B to C, hope this makes sense.

No, no, no. Joining/leaving short is only fare evasion on Advance Purchase ticket and a few outward portions of walk-up tickets on certain routes.

NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) says:-

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations.

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a
return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for
the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in
the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However,
these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their
notices and other publications.

[Btline]

I have removed one of my posts.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks, Btline!