Remove First Class?

[whole diary]

[paul7575]

 Valid points have been made in the article, if people bother to read it.
 Standing on any form of Transport should be addressed, something which some TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s have failed to do.
 Seem to remember SWT^▸ (South West Trains) taking seats out of their suburban stock to allow more standing passengers.
 God forbid we have another incident like 10 years ago, with a full and standing train.

Are you seriously suggesting there should be no standing on any public transport? How are you going to enforce that on local buses, trams, tube etc? So why not have standing on suburban trains? 

If you wanted no one standing on longer distance intercity trains, you'd have to make them 100% reserved, which would be fairly impractical for all those commuters using intercity services over part of their routes...

Paul

[Btline]

It is unrealistic for there to be no standing. Otherwise we'd have to have mega long and frequent trains in the peaks, which would then just sit in sidings for the rest of the day. Not cost effective.

[inspector_blakey]

Quite right.

Virtually all of Amtrak's trains are fully reserved which, combined with the extortionate fares they charge unless you book in advance (e.g. Trenton NJ to Philadelphia PA^▸ (Public Address), $50 for a 30-minute journey) makes walk-up travel a near impossibility. The flexibility that many rail fares will give you in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) simply doesn't exist here. I'd far rather have that flexibility and have to stand occasionally.

And the issue of standing on a train being less safe than sitting is a complete red herring. It's been studied extensively in the past (can't remember off the top of my head if it was the RSSB^▸ (Rail Safety and Standards Board) or the HSE^▸ (Health and Safety Executive)); the conclusion drawn was that standing is an issue of comfort, not safety, and I tend to agree.

[JayMac]

 Valid points have been made in the article, if people bother to read it.
 Standing on any form of Transport should be addressed, something which some TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s have failed to do.
 Seem to remember SWT^▸ (South West Trains) taking seats out of their suburban stock to allow more standing passengers.
 God forbid we have another incident like 10 years ago, with a full and standing train.

What happened in 1999 with a full and standing train? Can you jog my memory?

If it's a reference to Ladbroke Grove then the nature of that accident with its fire and a high closing speed had little bearing on the injuries suffered by passengers, whether seated or not.



modified to add apostrophe to the first 'its'. I know from experience on this forum that this kind of thing is important!

[Btline]

And you could argue that a full and standing train is safer for passengers in the event of a collision!

[super tm]

If standing was a safety issue then all passengers would be made to stay in their seats for the whole journey, there would be no trolley service or buffet service and no guard could walk up and down the train checking tickets etc.

[Phil]

If standing was a safety issue then all passengers would be made to stay in their seats for the whole journey, there would be no trolley service or buffet service and no guard could walk up and down the train checking tickets etc.

Except during take off and on the approach to a station, obviously. 

(though sometimes, TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) seem so utterly in thrall of the airline industry that I fully expect "customer hosts" to stand at the front of the carriage and demonstrate emergency procedures at any moment. Next thing we know they'll be charging for baggage...)

[Btline]

Yes, we'll need seat belts and oxygen supplies at each seat.

God, I hope no EU^» (European Union - about) Health and Safety bureaucrats are reading this - I wouldn't put it past Brussels!

[JayMac]

(....... Next thing we know they'll be charging for baggage...)

Sshhh.... don't go giving TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) ideas!

[caliwag]

I seem to recall a shopper being charged for extra bags a few year ago...in the days of Regional railways (bloody BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))) I'm sure it was somewhere near Stamford... incredible. Once the press got hold of it, it was quietly dropped. Anybody shed any light on it...absolute shame!!

[inspector_blakey]

There are actually limits to what you can take on board with you (and always have been, it's not something recent). The Accompanied Animals and Articles (AAA) conditions are, I think, an additional document to the conditions of carriage that can be inspected at stations. Tickets can (or used to be) issued for luggage in excess of the allowance, with status AAA printed on them.

There have to be rules of some sort covering luggage, otherwise people will just try taking the p*ss...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/6588209.stm

[Mookiemoo]

There are actually limits to what you can take on board with you (and always have been, it's not something recent). The Accompanied Animals and Articles (AAA) conditions are, I think, an additional document to the conditions of carriage that can be inspected at stations. Tickets can (or used to be) issued for luggage in excess of the allowance, with status AAA printed on them.

There have to be rules of some sort covering luggage, otherwise people will just try taking the p*ss...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/6588209.stm

So was I taking the piss with one carry on bag and two suitcases - one which weighed 56lbs and one which weighed 69lbs?

Had to have help hauling them on the train.......and off again.

When I departed these shores they were empty - combined weight 30lbs!

I damn sure would not have been happy having to buy separate tickets for them!

[JayMac]

There are actually limits to what you can take on board with you (and always have been, it's not something recent). The Accompanied Animals and Articles (AAA) conditions are, I think, an additional document to the conditions of carriage that can be inspected at stations. Tickets can (or used to be) issued for luggage in excess of the allowance, with status AAA printed on them.

There have to be rules of some sort covering luggage, otherwise people will just try taking the p*ss...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/6588209.stm

So was I taking the piss with one carry on bag and two suitcases - one which weighed 56lbs and one which weighed 69lbs?

Had to have help hauling them on the train.......and off again.

When I departed these shores they were empty - combined weight 30lbs!

I damn sure would not have been happy having to buy separate tickets for them!

One wonders what the 95lbs additional weight on your return to these shores was. Do we need to inform HM Revenue and Customs?

[Btline]

They do say that you should be able to carry them yourself.

I don't know how many lbs you're allowed to bring on. I take it on a Pacer it is less lest the engine breaks down.

Is their a weight restriction (e.g. most airlines are about 50 lbs)

[inspector_blakey]

Ah, but appendix B, covering AAA, goes into excruciating details about whats allowed...

APPENDIX B ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS FOR LUGGAGE, ARTICLES,
ANIMALS AND CYCLES
Conveyance of Luggage and Articles in Passenger Accommodation
1. Passenger accommodation in these Conditions means the parts of trains with
seats or sleeper berths including luggage stowage areas above, beneath and
behind seats and adjacent to doorways.
2. Condition 46 allows you to take small items of Luggage and Articles into the
passenger accommodation of a train. Small items are considered to be those
with dimensions not exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm with a weight not exceeding
50kg. Each passenger (aged 5 years or more) may take three small items into a
train free of charge, however, the dimensions of only two of these items may
exceed 55 x 40 x 20 cm.
21
3. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for:
● each additional item in excess of a passenger^s free allowance; and
● any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm.
4. A Train Company may refuse to accept Luggage or Articles in passenger
accommodation if any of the following apply:
● the restrictions listed in Condition 49 apply;
● the item would obstruct doorways, gangways or corridors;
● the dimensions of the item exceed 100 x 100 x 100 cm; or
● in the opinion of the Train Company^s staff, the item is only suitable to be
conveyed in a luggage van.
5. For wheelchairs please refer to the table ^Luggage and Miscellaneous Articles^
Conveyance of Luggage and Articles in Luggage Vans
6. A luggage van, in these Conditions, means the part of some trains provided
specially to convey parcels, packages, cycles and larger items of Luggage.
7. Under Condition 47 the Train Companies may convey larger items of Luggage
and Articles in a luggage van, if one is available. Items with dimensions
exceeding 150 x 150 x 100 cm, or with a weight exceeding 75kg, will not be
accepted. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for
each item.
22
Your Maximum Free Luggage / Articles Allowance
90 x 70 x 30 cm
maximum
dimensions and
50kg maximum weight
90 x 70 x 30 cm
maximum
dimensions and
50kg maximum weight
55 x 40 x 20 cm
maximum
dimensions and
50kg maximum weight
+ +
8. Luggage and Articles conveyed in a luggage van must be clearly labelled with
your name, address and destination station. Staff will not release the items to
you until you have proved ownership.
9. A Train Company may refuse to accept Luggage or Articles in a luggage van if
any of the restrictions listed in Condition 49 apply.
10. For wheelchairs please refer to the table ^Luggage and Miscellaneous Articles^.
Animals
11. You may take dogs and small animals with you into the passenger accommodation
of trains. Animals, with the exception of blind or deaf persons^ assistance dogs
at the discretion of the steward, may not be taken into buffet or restaurant cars.
Animals are not generally allowed in sleeper compartments, however dogs may
be conveyed in sleeper cabins with the permission of the Train Company. You
should apply for such permission at least 48 hours before you travel.
12. Except for dogs, animals must be conveyed in a fully enclosed basket or pet
carrier designed for this purpose with dimensions not exceeding 85 x 60 x 60
cm. Baskets and pet carriers must be large enough to allow the animal to
stand and lie down in comfort. Animals which are too large for a basket or
pet carrier with dimensions 85 x 60 x 60 cm may not be conveyed by train.
13. Two animals may accompany you on trains free of charge.
14. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for each
additional animal in excess of a passenger^s free allowance.
15. An animal may be conveyed in a train^s luggage van, if one is available. A dog
should be muzzled and its lead securely fastened as directed by Train Company
staff. Baskets and pet carriers must be secure. Dogs and any baskets or pet
23
Your Maximum Free Animal Allowance
85 x 60 x 60cm maximum
dimensions
85 x 60 x 60cm maximum
dimensions
+
carriers must be clearly labelled with your name, address and destination
station. Staff will not hand over animals until you have proved ownership.
16. Dogs must be kept on a lead throughout your journey; other animals must not be
taken out of their baskets or pet carriers. If your dog or other animal causes a
nuisance or inconvenience to other passengers you may be asked to remove it from
a train or railway premises by the Train Company or Rail Service Company staff.
The tables below are a guide to the conveyance of luggage, articles and animals
by train.

I've just done a quick "cut and paste" so not all the tables are in this, the ones that are are mangled and the diagrams are missing. If you really care then check out the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) online pdf, pp. 21-26, http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/index_custom.html. I was amused to note that the carriage of livestock is specifically prohibited.