Remove First Class?

[whole diary]

[jane s]

Of course the griping is usually from people who cant afford first class............... no surprise there then

 

Why would I want to pay a fortune for a carriage that ends up being full of "standing room onlies" just like all the others because there is (usually) no-one to stop them?

[matt473]

I am all for first class even though I am highly unlikely to afford it unless I can get ridiculously low advance fares. Some first class fares are extremely high but since people claim this back usually it is not too muchof a burden on the individual.This can be beneficial to tocs as first class can (but not always) be a real money spinner. This means that those travelling standard can get lower prices as these are cross subsidised from the higher priced tickets for first class. The only time first classis useless is on local journeys where it is an uneccessary waste of capcity such as the Thames Valley and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) turbostars. First class should remain though on all intercity services, after all the airlines offer comfort to business passengers so why can't rail against to help it compete with air?

[willc]

Use of a 12 car loco hauled set on the busiest six  HST^▸ (High Speed Train) diagrams would very substantialy increase seating capacity.

And it would very substantially increase journey times. Lower top speed and poor acceleration. I remember the days when the Wessex Scot used to struggle out of Oxford with it's 11 or 12 coaches in the days when it used to split at Carstairs.

Would the performance be much reduced ? I was thinking of class 67s or something based on that design, top speed of 125.

The class 67s may have a design top speed of 125mph, but have never achieved it, except in testing. For everyday purposes they are limited to 110mph and since the end of the express parcels runs between the West Midlands and Scotland I doubt any even threatens that speed, given their main regular jobs are for Wrexham & Shropshire, the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) loco-hauled set, plus similar jobs in Scotland and the Scotrail sleepers north of Edinburgh. Indeed the five locos on sleeper duties have cast iron brake blocks due to problems on the West Highland Line's hills and are limited to 80mph as a result.

As for first class on Turbos, while the 166s' two first class compartments may be an unneeded luxury on most Thames Valley services, for Oxford and Cotswold Line services - which these sets were built for - those extra seats are still needed. If a 165 turns up on the 8.58 from Malvern, it's almost guaranteed that some first class passengers from Charlbury will have to sit in standard at least as far as Oxford.

[DevonTrains2008]

My opinion is to reduce the amount of 1st class coaches, and increase the number of standard ones.  Prehaps on some workings where less business passengers are found scrapping 1st class and replacing it with standard may not be a bad idea?

[Mookiemoo]

My opinion is to reduce the amount of 1st class coaches, and increase the number of standard ones.  Prehaps on some workings where less business passengers are found scrapping 1st class and replacing it with standard may not be a bad idea?

And can you isolate those sets?

[Btline]

My opinion is to reduce the amount of 1st class coaches, and increase the number of standard ones.  Prehaps on some workings where less business passengers are found scrapping 1st class and replacing it with standard may not be a bad idea?

But what do you do WHEN (not if) the sets get mixed up (due to one of a myriad of possible reasons) and a peak time London service, full of businessmen who have First Class season tickets/expensive First Anytime Returns, is operated by a Standard only train?

[JayMac]

My opinion is to reduce the amount of 1st class coaches, and increase the number of standard ones.  Prehaps on some workings where less business passengers are found scrapping 1st class and replacing it with standard may not be a bad idea?

HST^▸ (High Speed Train) sets (indeed all trains) have to be in revenue earning service for as long as possible during the day. You cannot adjust the ratio of coaches at different times of the day to perfectly suit the loadings.

Oh, and in this day and age it is not just business types travelling in 1st class, even a prole like me can be found in there occasionally. I once returned from a camping trip on Dartmoor looking decidedly tramp-like with my dog on a piece of string (I'd lost his lead) and I overheard a 'suit' asking the Customer Host to have the 'homeless guy' removed. I got up and showed Mr Nosy my ticket and my house keys, which shut him up! CH apologised but not Mr Nosy.

[Tim]

A class 67 + 12 carriages would not stand a chance of getting to 125mph. It would struggle to get to 110mph and that would be with very poor acceleration.

why not put a 67 at each end?

[Tim]

This can be beneficial to tocs as first class can (but not always) be a real money spinner. This means that those travelling standard can get lower prices as these are cross subsidised from the higher priced tickets for first class.

See my post above.  I'm not convinced it is the money spinner it is made out to be.

[RailCornwall]

Ludicrous suggestion, if you want to draw business people off planes and onto the train, comfort and some degree of civility should be provided for them. Any reduction would be self defeating.

[broadgage]

A class 67 + 12 carriages would not stand a chance of getting to 125mph. It would struggle to get to 110mph and that would be with very poor acceleration.

why not put a 67 at each end?

That is what I was presuming, for a trial one could have a driver in each locomotive, though for regular use of course through control would be required.
Since my first post on this subject however, others have cast doubts as to the suitability of 67s for 125 MPH operation, though that is what they were designed for.

[Trowres]

Ludicrous suggestion, if you want to draw business people off planes and onto the train, comfort and some degree of civility should be provided for them. Any reduction would be self defeating.

Ludicrous, perhaps, until you do the sums?

[willc]

The sums have done many times by the rail industry - hence the disappearance of first class on many routes all over the country since the early 1980s - but as well as InterCity lines, there are places, especially on London outer-suburban services, where in the Monday to Friday peaks the amount of money coming in more than justifies allocating space for first class seats. BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) made a deliberate decision to keep first class on Thames Valley commuter trains when it ordered the Turbos in the early 90s for that very reason.

[Tim]

The sums have done many times by the rail industry - hence the disappearance of first class on many routes all over the country since the early 1980s - but as well as InterCity lines, there are places, especially on London outer-suburban services, where in the Monday to Friday peaks the amount of money coming in more than justifies allocating space for first class seats. BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) made a deliberate decision to keep first class on Thames Valley commuter trains when it ordered the Turbos in the early 90s for that very reason.

My original post is that doing the sums may produce a different answer depending on how close you are to maximum capacity on a route.  If there is plenty of capacity it makes sense to have both SC and FC^‡(resolve) to draw as many people as possible onto the train.

RailCornwall is perfectly correct that you need FC to draw business people off the planes and onto the trains.  BUT if capacity is limited you may be faced with deciding - "do I make this coach FC and draw 40 business people off a plane, or make it SC and draw 80+ shop-workers out of their cars?"  It would be mice to be able to add an extra coach of each class, but lack of stock, platform length and or motive power may stop you doing this.  As a FC costs at least twice as much to convey as a SC passenger a purly ecomonic analysis would suggest that FC only makes more money for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) if FC fares are at least twice that of SC.  If you start to price "externalities" (CO2 saved by getting business people off the road, increased productivity if those people can work on their journey,  congestion and lives saved by getting people off the road)  if gets much more complicated and your answer may well depend on how you price the externalities.

[Henry]

 Valid points have been made in the article, if people bother to read it.
 Standing on any form of Transport should be addressed, something which some TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s have failed to do.
 Seem to remember SWT^▸ (South West Trains) taking seats out of their suburban stock to allow more standing passengers.
 God forbid we have another incident like 10 years ago, with a full and standing train.