Worcester to Paddington. Off Peak Anomaly??

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Can anyone tell me why the up Cathedrals Express (ex WOF 0730) is an 'off-peak' train in standard class but an 'anytime' train in first class?

Surely time restrictions should apply to the whole train and not the class of travel. I am not aware of any other instances of this across FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network.

[Btline]

Another anomaly is that Off Peak Day/Travelcard tickets are not valid on this train, despite it being an Off Peak service.

Although it is useful to know that an Off Peak ticket is only a few quid more, and you can come back anytime - including the evening rush hour!

I expect it is a First Anytime train to stop people on cheaper tickets taking advantage of any enhanced catering there is to offer.

[JayMac]

Another anomaly is that Off Peak Day/Travelcard tickets are not valid on this train, despite it being an Off Peak service.

Although it is useful to know that an Off Peak ticket is only a few quid more, and you can come back anytime - including the evening rush hour!

I expect it is a First Anytime train to stop people on cheaper tickets taking advantage of any enhanced catering there is to offer.

I'd buy the idea of enhanced catering if there was something extra, but the free offerings are the same as on any other HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) service. Whilst you get the option of Travelling Chef food served at seat, you still pay for this and the service offered is the same as any other TC^▸ (Train Crew, or Travelling Chef, depending on context) train whether peak or off peak.

[devon_metro]

Probably because there is also a Cheap Day Return fare, subject to restriction P7 (any train arriving London after 1000)

[JayMac]

Probably because there is also a Cheap Day Return fare, subject to restriction P7 (any train arriving London after 1000)

Huh? Off Peak Day Return (CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))) is not valid on the Cathedrals as it arrives 0947. My point is that a whole train should be peak or off-peak, not dependent on what class of travel or whether you buy a travelcard.

[devon_metro]

I'm aware of what you're saying. I'm saying that there are 2 off peak standard class fares, however only 1 First Class, which probably explains it.

Besides, the First Class fare is cheap compared to Bristol for example.

[Btline]

Ah, so the First Anytime covers Standard Anytime and Standard Off Peak; and First Off Peak coves Standard Off Peak Day.

That makes sense, thanks DM^▸ (Dilton Marsh).

But why is an Standard Off Peak Return valid on a train into London before 10.00?

[willc]

I'm sure I've been through all this before some time ago but let's do it all again, just to be sure.

Way back in the mists of time, when there were precious few Cotswold Line services compared with today's timetable and a long gap between the Cathedrals' arrival in London and that of the next service from the Cotswolds (actually a via Oxford connection back then, I think), BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) agreed under pressure from the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) to ease certain ticket restrictions on this service, so that from stations west of Oxford only, you could use CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) (but not Network Cards) and CDRs could also be used for return journeys from London in the evening peak to stations west of Oxford only. Oxford passengers using this train paid - and still do - full peak fares.

This exemption continued under privatisation until the final year of Thames Trains (which as the main operator set the fares and fare rules on the route, even for the services run by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)), when Govia were determined to grab every penny they could and removed the CDR exemption but instead allowed Savers to be used, rather than enforcing full peak fares, a situation that has continued to this day, under whatever stupid and obscure obscure name Savers now go by.

Given the yawning gap from the Cathedrals' arrival into London until the next train from Worcester (1hr 43min), that will only be closed slightly and for just the eastern part of the line from December, I think even FGW aren't stupid enough to brave the tidal wave of anger they would unleash were they try to enforce full peak fares.

If post-2011 they shuffle things around in such a way as to produce a Cotswold service with say a 10.30-10.45 arrival at Paddington, then the Cathedrals exemption may go, but that's for the future.

[Btline]

Thanks for the explanation Willc, I've never seen it before...

As for "stupid" names. I would argue that names like Saver are far worse than Off Peak. What does "Saver" tell you about the ticket for an inexperienced traveller. I know what "Off Peak" says!

PS: Thames Trains was not Govia. It was Go - Ahead. I bet that makes all the difference!

[inspector_blakey]

A few years ago some friendly staff at Oxford used to sell off-peak returns (can't remember if it was Savers or Cheap Day Returns) from Hanborough to save people money on the peak Oxford-Padd fare that would otherwise have been required on that train.

The majority of off-peak and off-peak day returns allow break of journey/joining or alighting short on both legs now, so unless there is a specific restriction applied to the Hanborough/Cotswolds tickets, that looks like it would be a legitimate money-saving tip for Oxford travellers. However, I stand to be corrected because I don't have an up-to-date version of Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) traveller.

PS: Thames Trains was not Govia. It was Go - Ahead. I bet that makes all the difference!

Absolutely correct. It always puzzled me that Go-Ahead manage to make such an excellent job of running Oxford local bus services (in the guise of the Oxford Bus Company) but such a shoddy train service (in the guise of Thames Trains), but I don't want to re-tread old ground that I've covered before here 

[Btline]

But Govia operate excellent rail franchises! LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), SN, SE....

[inspector_blakey]

I'm prepared to believe that (although no first-hand of any experience of any of those you mention). But my fairly extensive experience of Thames Trains convinced me that they had given up on trying to provide any sort of service some time before the end of the franchise and were just trying to get what money they could out of it before they got out.

[JayMac]

But Govia operate excellent rail franchises! LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), SN, SE....

Southern and Southeastern maybe. But London Midland?

[JayMac]

I'm sure I've been through all this before some time ago but let's do it all again, just to be sure.

Way back in the mists of time, when there were precious few Cotswold Line services compared with today's timetable and a long gap between the Cathedrals' arrival in London and that of the next service from the Cotswolds (actually a via Oxford connection back then, I think), BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) agreed under pressure from the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) to ease certain ticket restrictions on this service, so that from stations west of Oxford only, you could use CDRs^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) (but not Network Cards) and CDRs could also be used for return journeys from London in the evening peak to stations west of Oxford only. Oxford passengers using this train paid - and still do - full peak fares.

This exemption continued under privatisation until the final year of Thames Trains (which as the main operator set the fares and fare rules on the route, even for the services run by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)), when Govia were determined to grab every penny they could and removed the CDR exemption but instead allowed Savers to be used, rather than enforcing full peak fares, a situation that has continued to this day, under whatever stupid and obscure obscure name Savers now go by.

Given the yawning gap from the Cathedrals' arrival into London until the next train from Worcester (1hr 43min), that will only be closed slightly and for just the eastern part of the line from December, I think even FGW aren't stupid enough to brave the tidal wave of anger they would unleash were they try to enforce full peak fares.

If post-2011 they shuffle things around in such a way as to produce a Cotswold service with say a 10.30-10.45 arrival at Paddington, then the Cathedrals exemption may go, but that's for the future.

Thank-you very much for the explanation willc. I'd not come across it before. The 'anomaly' makes much more sense now.

[Btline]

LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) is a HUGE improvement on CT! They actually clean the trains, so much so that it is hard to find a newspaper lying around. After an initial drop in performance, LM became unbelievably punctual and reliable. They have fitted ticket gates, and put in ticket machines. The publish posters showing which trains have spare seats, and how many carriages rush hour trains are formed of.

And the biggie, is that they are finally replacing the clapped out 150s, several years overdue! At last, ALL of the West Mids area will have acceptable rolling stock.

The only problems they've had are due to the poor WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) upgrade and the problems with the unions. Neither are LM's fault, as the Sunday problems started in Silverlink's days. Hopefully LM will force all staff to accept a new deal where Sunday is part of the week.