Aberystwyth-London route proposed

[whole diary]

[Btline]

Unfortunately, I can't see the W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) route being successful in the long term.

Network Rail want to electrify to Shrewsbury and then have 2 tph to London Euston via the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line). This would kill off W&S. A few VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) Chester services could be extended to Wrexham to compensate.

[John R]

I think any plans to electrify to Shrewshire would extend beyond most people's view of long term.

[Btline]

I think any plans to electrify to Shrewshire would extend beyond most people's view of long term.

Very true. I think they meant post HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)). (when the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) services to B'ham would be empty unless they were to run further)

[matt473]

By then Open Acces would have developed with no more of these anti-competition clauses in franchises. I think WSMR^▸ (Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway) and their owners DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) potentially could have a very profitable service in the futue considering they already own stock which is usually the main factor preventingopen access companies.

I predict that gradually you will more and more services operated on a commercial basis through Open Access with franchises being like local government tenders that will provide services in the unprofitable areas. This is of course over a very long period of time, possibly post HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))

[Btline]

From December there will be 2 ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) services from London Marylebone to Newtown.

London Marylebone 13:15
Leamington Spa 14:41
Birmingham International 15:09
Birmingham New Street 15:26
Smethwick Galton Bridge 15:32
Wolverhampton 15:44
Telford 16:01
Wellington Shropshire 16:07
Shrewsbury 16:30
Welshpool 17:02
Newtown 17:18

and

London Marylebone 15:15
Leamington Spa 16:45
Birmingham International 17:09
Smethwick Galton Bridge 17:32
Wolverhampton 17:44
Telford 18:01
Wellington Shropshire 18:07
Shrewsbury 18:27
Welshpool 19:02
Newtown 19:18

There will also be one single Newtown to Marylebone service.

Newtown 07:33
Welshpool 07:50
Shrewsbury 08:15
Wolverhampton 09:03
Smethwick Galton Bridge 09:16
Birmingham New Street 09:22
Birmingham International 09:35
Leamington Spa 10:07
London Marylebone11:36

(a) Why just to Newtown?

(b) Why are the missing a New Street stop in the heart of the rush hour? I thought the whole point of this stupid London service was for there to be an hourly service to the Cambrian Line in the evening rush. (i.e. at 1626, 1726 and 1826)

(c) Why don't they use this spare stock to run an hourly Aber - Shrewsbury trains instead? The extra trains could be continued to Crewe to allow for Northbound connexions.

[grahame]

From December there will be 2 ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) services from London Marylebone to Newtown.

(c) Why don't they use this spare stock to run an hourly Aber - Shrewsbury trains instead? The extra trains could be continued to Crewe to allow for Northbound connexions.

Not a lot of winter traffic west of Shrewsbury, and that which IS on offer will wait an extra hour. Not much point running 2 trains at 30% loading instead of one at 60%.   Whereas you run a London service and you pick up extra passengers who would not otherwise have been customers of your trains.  Do I smell an ORCATs raid?

[John R]

If these timings are correct then I don't think it stands a chance of being given the go ahead. For one thing, none of the services serve Machynlleth and Aberystwyth, and moreover an 0815 departure from Shrewsbury wil clearly abstract revenue from the W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) service leaving 8 minutes earlier, both through ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services) allocation of revenue and by sale of operator specific tickets.

It's a long held asparation of the WAG^» (Welsh Assembly Government - about) to deliver an hourly service on the Cambrian. If I understand it correctly many services are currently comprised of 2 units east of Machynlleth (as they divide there for Aber and the Coast Line), so it can't be beyond the wit of man to work out an operation which splits these into two separate hourly services. I suspect when the ETRMS work is complete it will happen.

 

[Btline]

The timetable is being finalised and signed this week, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that this HOPELESS, pathetic excuse of a service is binned for good!

The fact that it may put W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) out of business even quicker is also a reason to stop Arriva.

If they have spare units, then attach them to some of the Aber 2 car trains which are often bursting from Aber! Or some 6 car trains in the peaks in and out of B'ham!

Or give them to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)!

[Mookiemoo]

The timetable is being finalised and signed this week, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that this HOPELESS, pathetic excuse of a service is binned for good!

The fact that it may put W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) out of business even quicker is also a reason to stop Arriva.

If they have spare units, then attach them to some of the Aber 2 car trains which are often bursting from Aber! Or some 6 car trains in the peaks in and out of B'ham!

Or give them to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)!

Or stick them on the MArches - some of the late afternoon services - they are not Standing but they are every seat full and some sitting in the vestibules!

[paul7575]

If these timings are correct then I don't think it stands a chance of being given the go ahead. For one thing, none of the services serve Machynlleth and Aberystwyth, and moreover an 0815 departure from Shrewsbury wil clearly abstract revenue from the W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) service leaving 8 minutes earlier, both through ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services) allocation of revenue and by sale of operator specific tickets.

The 0815 is 'set down only' at Shrewsbury according to the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)'s version  of the track access agreement.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22-atw-38sa-appfrm.pdf

Worth a read if anyone is just guessing about the service...

Paul

[willc]

Yes, well i can think who might be guessing, due to a professed aversion to reading the detailed documents such as the application Paul has provided the link to.

Reading the form shows that by jumping the gun and putting the December timetable online ahead of it being formally signed off, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are missing out a series of stops in Wales that are yet to be formally approved by Network Rail (in particular the paths west of Newtown), hence are not entered on the timetable system yet - never mind that if the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) turns ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) down, then the whole thing is academic anyway.

[Btline]

Yes, well i can think who might be guessing, due to a professed aversion to reading the detailed documents such as the application Paul has provided the link to.

Reading the form shows that by jumping the gun and putting the December timetable online ahead of it being formally signed off, XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are missing out a series of stops in Wales that are yet to be formally approved by Network Rail (in particular the paths west of Newtown), hence are not entered on the timetable system yet - never mind that if the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) turns ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) down, then the whole thing is academic anyway.

It seems mad to put the trains into the Journey Planner when they have yet to be agreed. People could be reserving seats on these trains as we speak!

Please note that I have posted twice on the forum today stating that I know the times are yet to be finalised.

What you say certainly makes sense of the "missing" sections of the train route.

And how was I meant to read the document - Paul has only just put the link up.

I'm sorry if putting these train times up upsets you. I just thought that in light of this thread, and other discussion on the forum, the timetable would be of interest to those who had participated in said discussions!

[willc]

It doesn't upset me, it's just that if XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) had not been so stupid as to make this stuff accessible to the public when the timetable process is not complete, so some information is missing or still subject to amendment, then you wouldn't be posting incomplete information as though it is fact, never mind that the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) has yet to make a formal decision on the entire proposal. These are simply reserved paths in the timetable, should the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) service ever start, nothing more.

[Btline]

But I got the info from LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)'s website not XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)).  These trains are reservable on TrainLine, XC and MixingDeck websites!

For the love of Pete what the hell is going on!

What will they do if people reserve?

[willc]

What's going on is that someone, somewhere - not, it should be, said FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or at National Rail - has been very silly.

There is a reason there is a supposed agreed deadline for signing off the timetable - so that only the right information gets released.

Even when the complete timetable is released, the only bits that should be accessible by the public are the West Midlands-Welsh Coast legs of those services - unless and until the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) signs off on London.

To give but one recent example, W&S^▸ (Wrexham and Shropshire (Open Access Operator)) had protected paths written into the timetable for months before it began to run, since the December 2007 timetable change, I think. They were only activated in journey planners three weeks before services began, when the launch date was announced. The same should happen here. I expect questions will be being asked.