'Rail penalty fares to soar under Government plans' from the Telegraph (7/9/09)

[whole diary]

[paul7575]

...I suspect the House of Commons will vote the motion down.   

On what grounds? Not that it would go to a vote anyway, it would just be a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) decision. As the figures proposed are already in use on LU, I'd assume it will happen.  In effect, they are just proposing a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) of ^25 rather than ^20. ^50 would be self-inflicted, and the deadline would be extended if an appeal was made, going by other variable rate penalty systems, such as parking...

Paul

[Steve Bray]

To give an example of boarding a train without a ticket....On Saturday, I tried to buy a ticket from the machine at Dorking Deepdene. The sun was shining straight at the display, making it practically impossible to make out any of it. Coupled with the fact that no matter how hard I jabbed the glass with my thumb, the screen just didn't react. So I gave up and bought my ticket on the train. 

[Mookiemoo]

To give an example of boarding a train without a ticket....On Saturday, I tried to buy a ticket from the machine at Dorking Deepdene. The sun was shining straight at the display, making it practically impossible to make out any of it. Coupled with the fact that no matter how hard I jabbed the glass with my thumb, the screen just didn't react. So I gave up and bought my ticket on the train. 

Many of the ones at slough arent exactly touch screen but whack screen and hope

Oh - and dont get me started on using the damn things with one inch nails - which I have at the moment........... almost impossible (but then so are many chip and pin machines but at least them you can jab with your nail tip - TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s do not respond to end of nail jabbing (but then nor do iphones!))

Sorry sir - I could not buy a ticket as could not operate with nails.......that is actually a real excuse ......

[Trowres]

It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

Hopefully members of rail staff are a tad more diplomatic when dealing with passengers

[grahame]

To give an example of boarding a train without a ticket....On Saturday, I tried to buy a ticket from the machine at Dorking Deepdene. The sun was shining straight at the display, making it practically impossible to make out any of it. Coupled with the fact that no matter how hard I jabbed the glass with my thumb, the screen just didn't react. So I gave up and bought my ticket on the train. 

I've chosen Steve to quote ... but there are so many posts I could follow up!

Personal view.  Intentional attempts to travel and avoid paying a legit fare - a fine is fare enough, and potentially a stiff one. BUT where the system in place for getting tickets, or understanding which is the correct ticket for you, does not work both practically and effecttively, there shouldn't even be any possibility of you being fined / dragged through the mud.   

Alas, we see so many examples of where the system doesn't work effectively, or the rules are so hard for Jose Publicio to understand, that the whole system falls into disrepute. At times, even the staff don't know all the details / rules of the system.   I can recall asking five different  customer facing rail employees whether my offpeak Peterborough to Melksham ticket was valid on a peakish train from Paddington and getting a 3 to 2 vote from them.   And I still smart under the statement made on this forum by an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) conductor: "It is official FGW policy that you may only join an FGW train without a ticket ... where there are no staff on duty and there is a not working TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)"; frankly, I don't believe that is what (s)he meant to say - but in spite of requests it was never clarified.

Yes - stiff fines for intentional fare evasion, but please can we have a system of fares and ticket issuing that makes it practical to understand the rules, and practical to apply them to regular journeys. And that includes turning up at a station five minutes (say) before a scheuled departure secure in the knowledge that you'll legally be able to joing the train if you have means of fare payment with you.

[vacman]

Well we all have our opinion but lets face it, Penalty fares are here to stay and are only in existence because of the people that don't bother to buy tickets at the station, in an ideal world people could buy tickets on trains but the dishonest ones amongst us would abuse the system, as far as i'm concerned the WORST kind of fare evader is someone who DOES have the means to pay but gets on without a ticket from a manned station and sits at the far end of the train away from the guard, it's people like that who have ensured that penalty fares have become such a successful tool and why ticket rules are so strict, and lets face it, a lot of people who are on the "wrong" ticket know damn well that their ticket isn't valid but plead ignorance when caught, who in turn have ensured that the few genuine cases become un-believeable, until you actually have experience of working on the railways with some of the fare evading scrotes that are out there then it is difficult to believe just how many chancers there are out there!

And before someone says "well the railway should do something about these scrotes" or something similar, well they have done something about it, it's called penalty fares!

[vacman]

The arguement that Penalty fares are used to "milk" passengers is flawed, Penalty fares admin is dealt with by an outside company and it costs the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) around ^15 to process each one, Penalty fares are genuinely there as a deterrent, and what better deterrent than ^50.00 for a short journey? All RP staff (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) are all allowed to use their discretion when issuing PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s. It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

errr........yep

in which case you deserve to get a parking ticket, the same as a Penalty fare, your not above the law just because your late or because your loaded!

[Mookiemoo]

The arguement that Penalty fares are used to "milk" passengers is flawed, Penalty fares admin is dealt with by an outside company and it costs the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) around ^15 to process each one, Penalty fares are genuinely there as a deterrent, and what better deterrent than ^50.00 for a short journey? All RP staff (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) are all allowed to use their discretion when issuing PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s. It's simple buy a ticket and you will never have to face the threat of one, and for those of you that are always running late then tough, get to the station earlier, if your running late to park your car do you just go off without putting a ticket in your car???

errr........yep

in which case you deserve to get a parking ticket, the same as a Penalty fare, your not above the law just because your late or because your loaded!

The comparison is not exactly appropriate though.  With car parking, you park the car, you leave - once you have left the car you have no means to be able to purchase and display a ticket. 

The best analogy would be - you park your car but are sitting in it when the parking attendant comes around. 

You see, i'm not against penalty fares per se - just the ridiculous idea that, when the train managers are equipped with the means to sell a ticket, that you have to buy one before you get on.

I believe in law, the difference between man slaughter and murder is the intent - well under the PF system, the doging scrote and the poorly organised late for their own funeral but is happy to pay get the same treatment.

[John R]

I tried to get a single from Paddington to Swindon this evening at 1820 from a ticket machine near the taxi ranks at Paddington. The correct fare is ^24, but the only option I was given was ^54. I double checked this, even though short of time for my train. As I knew better I went to the ticket office, and because there was a queue there, went to a ticket machine in the ticket office which sold me a ticket for ^24 and highlighted the fact that it was only valid after 1825. (There are no Swindon departures from Paddington to Swindon between 1815 and 1830).

I still don't know whether my luck was in at the second machine because it was after 1825, or just because the first machine had not been re-programmed. But I would clearly have been over-charged had I purchased at the first machine, as I'm sure many people will have been.

Had I purchased at the higher price, should I accept that this was an accidental mistake, and the railway had no intention of overcharging me, or claim compensation (maybe ^1000?), because I was misled  and it's the railway's responsibility to charge the correct fare for the journey. The analogy with the situation the other way round is clear, although one would expect the railway to get the correct fare every time, as there can be no excuse for the party setting the fares not to understand the fare structure and charge accordingly.   

           

[paul7575]

I tried to get a single from Paddington to Swindon this evening at 1820 from a ticket machine near the taxi ranks at Paddington. The correct fare is ^24, but the only option I was given was ^54. I double checked this, even though short of time for my train. As I knew better I went to the ticket office, and because there was a queue there, went to a ticket machine in the ticket office which sold me a ticket for ^24 and highlighted the fact that it was only valid after 1825. (There are no Swindon departures from Paddington to Swindon between 1815 and 1830).

I still don't know whether my luck was in at the second machine because it was after 1825, or just because the first machine had not been re-programmed. But I would clearly have been over-charged had I purchased at the first machine, as I'm sure many people will have been.
        

In an ideal world a fare should become visible on a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) immediately after the last barred train has left, but FGW^▸ (First Great Western) may have set up the TVMs with a slight delay, possibly to allow for late running? But it may be worth asking them to fix this. I assume the TVMs have a fairly accurate internal clock system, as I've checked before, stuff like Network Cards not appearing in the railcard display until 1000. A similar issue then arises if you want to catch the 1001 and the previous train was 0945 - in a case like that they could make the Network card discount available  earlier, but I guess the default programming is 1000 across the whole area, as otherwise every stations TVMs would posssibly need reprogramming (ie retiming) slightly at timetable changes - unless this sort of thing is done by the TVM itself in real time.

Towards London they'll have another decision on when to make super off peak fares visible on the TVM, either 'after the last offpeak' or 'just before the first super offpeak' IYSWIM.

An idea? Maybe fares/railcards that are about to become available by time could be shown on the display but with a caveat 'available at hh:mm' to demonstrate to pax what is happening?

Paul

[Tim]

I believe in law, the difference between man slaughter and murder is the intent - well under the PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) system, the doging scrote and the poorly organised late for their own funeral but is happy to pay get the same treatment.

But PF is a civil penalty.  A moderate fine and no criminal record or need to prove intent.  Those with clear intent to defraud should be prosecute dunder criminal law.

I am in general a supporter of PF and like Vacman says they are here to stay, but like so much on the railway it isn't a question of what you do so much as how you do it.

The whole fares system needs to be overhauled.  PF's and the companies and staff who give them out need the support and respect of the normally law abiding public to do there job and the cack handed, arbitary and yes sometimes unfair current way of using PF undermines this.  PF would be less contentious and have greater respect if we also had:

1, a simple fair and honest fare system.
2, simple ticket restructions (universal peak times, that sort of thing)
3, ticket restrictions that are so simple that they can be printed in two lines on the front of the ticket.  At the moment they are so complicated that plenty of staff do not fully understand them.  How ablout the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) prohibiting TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) from applying a restiction that was too complicated to be printed on two lines of the ticket.  Result - no more confusion, no more honest people getting caught out, no more dishonest people trying it on by pleading ignorance of the restrictions.
4, an incentive to sort out invalid tickets before you board (for example upgrade of an AP or off-peak possible at the station perhaps for a small handling fee, but the same option not available on the train).  Result, guards life is easier and passengers with invalid ticket would be encouraged to pay a bit more for an upgrade rather than chance a journey and hope that ticket will not b checked or that they can get away with using an invlaid ticket by arguing the toss with the guard.
5, Cost of travelling on an invalid ticket and being caught to be made consistant.  lets say price of valid ticket plus ^25 penalty.    At the moment rail card holders get clobbered for more (above what their station brought ticket would have cost) than non-railcard holders.  off peak travellers can end up being fined hundreds with a PF and teh price of an open whereas on a peak train the only addition cost to a srote beyond that of a honest passenger who has an open return is the PF.  What is the justification of that?
6, If PF are being used, they should be used widely and all staff ought to be able to issue them.  At the moment the Scrotes know that some staff can't or don't issue them which undermines there effectiveness and frankly makes the staff who don't issue them and let the scrote off with a lesser or no punishment look stupid and weak.     

[Btline]

An idea? Maybe fares/railcards that are about to become available by time could be shown on the display but with a caveat 'available at hh:mm' to demonstrate to pax what is happening?

Good idea. You have a the list of fares, with some greyed out with "available from 1000". Or base it on the Mixing Deck, (allbeit a much simpler version!) where all fares are shown, some greyed out with the rough times of when they can be used. This would make it easier for less experienced passengers to understand our ticketing system.

And have a slot where you can insert a railcard, to ensure crooks don't buy discounted tickets - I have only been asked to show my railcard ONCE*, at the New Street staff barrier. And I travel by train a fair amount. And machine barriers don't ask you.

*Not including at the ticket office; sometimes I have it out anyway, although most guards just look at it with surprise, as if they have never seen one before, or ignore it.

[Mookiemoo]

And machine barriers don't ask you.

Some do..........I cant use a WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-SLO with a YP in the barrier!

[Btline]

And machine barriers don't ask you.

Some do..........I cant use a WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-SLO with a YP in the barrier!

? What they say please show Railcard?

[Mookiemoo]

And machine barriers don't ask you.

Some do..........I cant use a WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-SLO with a YP in the barrier!

? What they say please show Railcard?

No - if I get a WOS- SLO with a rail card - it says seek assistance

I originally thought it was the first class thing but it doesnt do it on local first class YP tickets

Seems only to be long distance ones!