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Author Topic: GW Main Line RUS  (Read 16759 times)
Zoe
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2009, 05:06:27 »

It was nice to see some interest point like Page 141, 6.9.12

Hourly Service from Exeter St James Park to Barnstable
Half Hourly Service from Exmouth to Paignton
Aspirational Half Hourly Service from Exeter to Axminster
Not until 2018 though.
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grahame
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2009, 08:54:15 »

The RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) is setting out the stall for the foreseeable future throughout the South West ... "rather significant" might be a bit of an understatement.  So I have added a poll at the top of "Across the West" asking our members to tell us what they would like us to do (if anything) in terms of responding or helping them respond.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5271.0
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2009, 22:28:29 »

I'll confine my thoughts to infrastructure proposals.

The 4th platform at Bristol Parkway is dismissed as too expensive and is very unlikely to happen. For a scheme which I thought had committed funding such an about face is remarkable.

The Weston - Worle enhancements, which were recently put back to 2011 are now also dismissed. The reason for the delay to 20111 was that performance improvements meant the single line was no longer the problem it was. Now, the proposed service enhancement to Weston is ruled out because the dualling is too expensive. Meanwhile, the line runs at 100% capacity for both peak periods.

However, in from left field comes 4 tracking Bedminster to Parson St. This is one of my favourite schemes as I've passed the disused track most days for the last 6 years, and I've often wondered why it hasn't been proposed before to reinstate the line. This scheme is recommended, due to the reduction in delay minutes it will bring.

Another scheme appearing from nowhere is 125mph Bristol to Bridgwater, saving 3 minutes on journey times which XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) will use to pad their recovery allowances even further.

Filton Bank appears to be causing some problems, as the schemes they've looked at are too expensive, but they recognise that something needs to be done. With an additional IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) service from Bristol TM(resolve) to London via Parkway proposed and anticipated increases in freight traffic it certainly does.

Finally the report continues the recent theme that Swindon - Kemble will be done, and later even talks about grade separating Standish junction (or dualling it - strange, I thought it was a double junction). I would have thought Westerleigh grade separation was more urgent than Standish.

Oh, and finally, finally, Nailsea is listed as an unstaffed station. Hope Jacob doesn't read it, as he might get a bit worried about his job.   

 
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eightf48544
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2009, 10:30:42 »

Agree with all John R's comments re infrastructure.

4th Platform at Bristol Parkway gives opportunites for cross platform interchange to and from between Bristol TM(resolve) (and SWest) /Birmingham and S Wales / London services.

it could also be used for overtaking. instead of teh via Parkway from TM London Service being fast, It could run Swindon Didcot Reading whilst the S.Wales overtook it and went fast to Reading. S. Wales passengers for intermediate stops could do a cross platform change.

This would mean That there would have to be one fast an hour non stop Reading Bath, this could be the Weston/Taunton train. Need to think about this but a 4th paltform at Parkway does give such opportunities.

Weston Worle, essential to improve Weston Service and give resilience to Bristol Taunton.

4 tracks Bedminister Parsons Street definitely.

125 Bristol Bridgwater, if Networkrail has to replace track then making it 125 makes sense after all Western Region fettled up Padd to Bristol both routes too 125 in a year or so prior to introduction of HST (High Speed Train)'s. Also HST's don't need signalling changes as they are designed to stop in the same distance as loco hauled at 90.

Filton Bank definite problem will become a bottle neck especialy if Portishead opens and trains run through to Parkway or Yate. 
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bemmy
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2009, 10:30:16 »

I'm going to use John R's post as a basis for my reaction to the RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) proposals for the Bristol area, as it saves me having to organise my thoughts! Overall I'm happy to see that Network Rail have considered so many schemes thoroughly, even if I don't always agree with their conclusions, it gives a lot of material for the politicians and pressure groups to work on.

I think we all need to bear in mind that the RUS is about what NR» (Network Rail - home page) can achieve given the current situation, that is to say they can't put anything in the plans that has no chance of happening without new funding being made available from somewhere. Therefore they can only propose a development off their own bat if they can make a solid business case that it will bring financial gains over a 60 year period. This does not mean that they are against any proposals which they are not currently supporting, just that they are not in a position to make them happen themselves.

I'll confine my thoughts to infrastructure proposals.

The 4th platform at Bristol Parkway is dismissed as too expensive and is very unlikely to happen. For a scheme which I thought had committed funding such an about face is remarkable.

The Weston - Worle enhancements, which were recently put back to 2011 are now also dismissed. The reason for the delay to 20111 was that performance improvements meant the single line was no longer the problem it was. Now, the proposed service enhancement to Weston is ruled out because the dualling is too expensive. Meanwhile, the line runs at 100% capacity for both peak periods.
I'm wondering if they're making a point here about the hypothetical "Greater Bristol Metro". Which is to say, it can't possibly be justified on commercial grounds, therefore if the various local and national government bodies and quangos want it to happen, don't look to Network Rail for a contribution. (Although the 4th platform at Parkway has clear benefits for freight and HST (High Speed Train) services too.)

In this respect we could also add to your list the Yate turnback which they say should be funded by a housing development.... pity no-one thought of that a couple of years ago when the housing market was still strong.

Quote
However, in from left field comes 4 tracking Bedminster to Parson St. This is one of my favourite schemes as I've passed the disused track most days for the last 6 years, and I've often wondered why it hasn't been proposed before to reinstate the line. This scheme is recommended, due to the reduction in delay minutes it will bring.
I'm surprised to see this too, not really sure if it's needed unless Portishead happens, as the current layout enables fast trains to pass slow trains around Bedminster in both directions. If it does ever happen, I like their idea of separating the tracks into a pair of relief lines on the north side and a pair of fast lines on the south side.

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Another scheme appearing from nowhere is 125mph Bristol to Bridgwater, saving 3 minutes on journey times which XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) will use to pad their recovery allowances even further.
Grin Which rather destroys their business case built on the value per minute saved...

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Filton Bank appears to be causing some problems, as the schemes they've looked at are too expensive, but they recognise that something needs to be done. With an additional IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) service from Bristol TM(resolve) to London via Parkway proposed and anticipated increases in freight traffic it certainly does.
They're clearly looking for government support for this one, which they won't get -- too big a scheme for the westcountry.

Quote
Finally the report continues the recent theme that Swindon - Kemble will be done, and later even talks about grade separating Standish junction (or dualling it - strange, I thought it was a double junction). I would have thought Westerleigh grade separation was more urgent than Standish.
Yes I find it amazing that although somewhere in the document they mention the stress on Westerleigh - Parkway, and talk of increasing freight and passenger services in the area, yet they have no proposals to alleviate it (apart from the now abandoned Parkway 4th platform). Ideally the stretch should be 4 track but obviously there's no chance if Filton Bank is too expensive with the track bed already there.

Other than John R's points above, I like the proposed hourly service from Clifton Down to Bath, although FOSBR (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways) will be up in arms about the idea of the service beyond Clifton reverting to hourly. Personally though I think half hourly to Clifton and hourly beyond would be better than the current sort-of-40-minutely service, especially considering that the vast majority of passengers travel inward from Clifton. I've read that Bath is the most popular destination for Severn Beach line passengers beyond Temple Meads, and I think Keynsham and Oldfield Park really need a half hourly service.

The proposed map of the Bristol area is bizarre, it seems to show some services terminating at Bedminster, which seems a bit random.
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signalandtelegraph
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2009, 13:53:23 »

I'll confine my thoughts to infrastructure proposals.

The 4th platform at Bristol Parkway is dismissed as too expensive and is very unlikely to happen. For a scheme which I thought had committed funding such an about face is remarkable.

 

Last paragraph page 164, it  apppears that this is still on the cards if a business case can be made?
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2009, 14:56:38 »

Good to hear that some Bristol/Wales longer distance InterCity trains will be dropping some stops. Although the report only says "some", I expect that this will mean peak trains only will have the stops removed, where there is the demand for shorter journey times.

Shame they can't cut some stops on the Plymouth and Cornwall trains.
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Zoe
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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2009, 15:17:46 »

Shame they can't cut some stops on the Plymouth and Cornwall trains.
There are much fewer stops at Newbury now and calls at Pewsey, Castle Cary and Westbury have also been reduced.  There are more stops at Tiverton Parkway though.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2009, 09:55:00 »

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me that it is really only tinkering. Remove stops here add stops there increase frequency here reduce it there.

How about a radicle rethink of how we provide a train servvice to all staions with an appropriate frequency and indentify the obstacles to providing such a service.

I would like to propose the stopper/fast concept for all lines with nodal staions where the fast overtakes and has a connection with the stopper which then follows the fast to the next node.

Possible example but only posible if Westbury has 4 platforms?

Down Southampton stopper arrives from Bristol, followed by on the other platform down Portsmouth fast which has only stopped at Bath and Trowbridge? Stopper waits Portsmouth departs next stop Warminister? Salisbury. As soon as Portsmouth leaves Down West of England arrives and departs.
You could add a stopper from London whcih termoinates or goes through to Penzance  as the first train in sequence which arrives empties and departs after fast West of England. The Bristol stopper could be a combined Southampton/Weymouth train which splits at Westbury.

Same in the Up West of England stoper Southampton/Weymouth stopper combines Cardiff fast overtakes and leaves. London fast train followed by Bristol London stoppers.

If we could run trains exactly to time this could be done in ten minutes given cross platform interchange. Of course it means having three trains in one platform and splitting and combining trains which we seem to lost the art of just a few years ago. After all this was how the Southern timetable worked for years, I'm not sure at how staions they split trains at but I can think of 5 off hand and some every half hour in both directions.

Other nodal points with possible overtaking Plymouth Newton Abbot Exeter Taunton Bristol Parkway for both London Birmingham etc.
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grahame
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2009, 10:22:18 »

I've been thinking about this and it seems to me that it is really only tinkering. Remove stops here add stops there increase frequency here reduce it there.

How about a radicle rethink of how we provide a train servvice to all staions with an appropriate frequency and indentify the obstacles to providing such a service.


There do seem to be some more 'radical' elements in the RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) - but it's really about providing the track and infrastructure (it's an NR» (Network Rail - home page) document) rather than exactly how those service should connect (DfT» (Department for Transport - about) / TOC (Train Operating Company) spec).   Having said which, it needs to consider the service pattern that TOCs / the DfT / local transport authority would like, as well as the service numbers.

There ARE some interesting things that are radical in the RUS around the Westbury area ... but more on stopping patterns and frequencies rather than - for somewhere like Westbury - the vital connection issue.

Our poll of "what d'you want us to do on the RUS" has just concluded ... I'll be looking at that / the results over the next 24 hours.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2009, 15:04:43 »


There do seem to be some more 'radical' elements in the RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) - but it's really about providing the track and infrastructure (it's an NR» (Network Rail - home page) document) rather than exactly how those service should connect (DfT» (Department for Transport - about) / TOC (Train Operating Company) spec).   Having said which, it needs to consider the service pattern that TOCs / the DfT / local transport authority would like, as well as the service numbers.

There ARE some interesting things that are radical in the RUS around the Westbury area ... but more on stopping patterns and frequencies rather than - for somewhere like Westbury - the vital connection issue.

Our poll of "what d'you want us to do on the RUS" has just concluded ... I'll be looking at that / the results over the next 24 hours.


I'm a little bit lost here. The RUS is Network Rail document which is about providing track and infrastructure but only "considers" service patterns that the DFT (Department for Transport)/TOC/Local Authority may like to run. Isn't that the wrong way round or am I being naive?

Surely it should start form what services do we (collectively) want to run what are the obstacles to running these services at the frequency, speed (timing), stopping pattern required and these are the possible  infrastructure solutions required and their cost.

At the moment it seems to be saying if we tweek this bit of the railway or change the frequency or stopping patterns we can run an extra train an hour on this part of the route irrespective of whether  it's actually needed and more importantly if it actually meets the travel needs of potential passengers..
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grahame
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2009, 15:34:11 »

At the moment it seems to be saying if we tweek this bit of the railway or change the frequency or stopping patterns we can run an extra train an hour on this part of the route irrespective of whether  it's actually needed and more importantly if it actually meets the travel needs of potential passengers..

I don't actually think it is - there's a lot of cost / benefit stuff in there which is based on calculations of how much benefit a service would be to the area served.   So it IS taking a look at what other stakeholders want.  Those other stakeholders should be the travelling public and wannabe travellers, but they're represented to a greater or lesser extent by people like the DfT» (Department for Transport - about), Passenger Focus, local transport authorities, TOCs (Train Operating Company), who are deemed to know more about train services and their precticality and overall impolications that individual passengers do.  So there's a degree of separation there - and I don't know if there's an easy solution; I know that we have not felt that the DfT, FGW (First Great Western) and Wiltshire Council have in the past truely represented the needs of travellers in our parts, and with a lot of the RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) base being from them ...

But the RUS is at consultation, and we have a chance to make inputs.

Who should be making those inputs on behalf of the passenger? I'm not sure that I see Passenger Focus co-ordinating passenger responses although their name says they should be.   I don't see the FGW customer panel doing much. TWSW» (TravelWatch SouthWest - website) has very useful meeting to help groups co-ordinate twice a year, but doesn't cover the whole area and it's beyond its remit.  RailFuture has headlines that it should be, but I can't see any mention on their web site of the RUS.

I hate to be presumtive, stand up and suggest that our little bunch should make strong inputs, but I look at the other options and I sense a bit of a vacuum.

Quote
I'm a little bit lost here. The RUS is Network Rail document which is about providing track and infrastructure but only "considers" service patterns that the DFT (Department for Transport)/TOC/Local Authority may like to run. Isn't that the wrong way round or am I being naive?

Surely it should start form what services do we (collectively) want to run what are the obstacles to running these services at the frequency, speed (timing), stopping pattern required and these are the possible  infrastructure solutions required and their cost.

There's a bit of "chicken and egg" here. We should indeed say "what services do we want to run or to have run for us", but then also be sure that we're looking at services which can be run. And that's where the CBR (Cost Benefit Ratioi (1/BCR)) stuff comes in.
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2009, 18:38:16 »

The RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy) is not a set in stone document it is NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s view on how it sees the most efficient use of the asset, the ToC's n FoC's through pressure of their customers may have a different view mix all this in with what DfT» (Department for Transport - about) want who provide much of the (tax payers) money to run the services and providing / maintaining the infrastructure all will alter the service patterns no doubt will suit some and mostly not others
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2009, 18:43:42 »

I would like to propose the stopper/fast concept for all lines with nodal staions where the fast overtakes and has a connection with the stopper which then follows the fast to the next node.

Sounds good - don't see how it could be impossible.

Hopefully Chiltern can start overtaking if any quad track is ever installed in the Ruslip area.
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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2009, 00:24:35 »


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Filton Bank appears to be causing some problems, as the schemes they've looked at are too expensive, but they recognise that something needs to be done. With an additional IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) service from Bristol TM(resolve) to London via Parkway proposed and anticipated increases in freight traffic it certainly does.
They're clearly looking for government support for this one, which they won't get -- too big a scheme for the westcountry.


Can someone explain the issues with Filton Bank to me? I don't get it. You've got a major junction with lots of services serving Bristol from both South Wales and The Midlands, these two lines combine into a single pair at Filton. There is trackbed all the way to Bristol not currently doing anything apart from providing a home to rabbits. How can laying the track and separating out these services not be a cost effective thing to do? It's not even that far! It's got to be less mileage than the Cotswold line redoubling but the current traffic density is an order of magnitude higher than that example.

Confused...
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