Penalty Fares- do they apply any longer?

[whole diary]

[Btline]

I ignored the Hereford bit because PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) on LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) services out to Hereford are being introduced in September. Of course the poster I read on Hereford Station could've been wrong!

Why are they extending it, when LM operate no trains which don't cross the penalty fare border?

I personally believe that the whole country should become a penalty far zone!

[JayMac]

Why are they extending it, when LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) operate no trains which don't cross the penalty fare border?

Huh, no comprende. "....no trains which don't....." Double negative.

[Btline]

Why are they extending it, when LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) operate no trains which don't cross the penalty fare border?

Huh, no comprende. "....no trains which don't....." Double negative.

Ok, all LM trains cross the border! So why are they extending it?

[JayMac]

I am aware of Penalty Fares trains and Penalty Fares stations, but what is a Penalty Fare border? There's no reference to 'borders' in the legislation.

[Btline]

Worcester is in the zone. Malvern is not. Therefore there is a "border" in between.

All LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) trains from Hereford go to Worcester. They therefore cross the "border" into the zone, are penalty fare trains so penalty fares apply throughout.

So why are LM extending the zone?

[inspector_blakey]

Therefore, someone from Hereford can be penalty fared on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service, because although the zone ends at Worcester, the train passes through the area later!

Aaaaaarrrrrghhh! No they can't. Btline, it is not some half-baked poster you may have seen that determines when a penalty fare can be applied. The conditions for PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) are clearly laid out both in an Act of Parliament and the conditions of carriage.

To be charged a penalty fare you must have boarded a designated penalty fares train at a designated penalty fares station. End. Of. Story.

It sounds like LM might have some posters out there that are badly worded or just plain wrong, assuming your interpretation of them is correct. However, these posters are just produced by some publicitiy department somewhere and do not change the rules.

[IndustryInsider]

Therefore, someone from Hereford can be penalty fared on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service, because although the zone ends at Worcester, the train passes through the area later!

Aaaaaarrrrrghhh! No they can't. Btline, it is not some half-baked poster you may have seen that determines when a penalty fare can be applied. The conditions for PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) are clearly laid out both in an Act of Parliament and the conditions of carriage.

To be charged a penalty fare you must have boarded a designated penalty fares train at a designated penalty fares station. End. Of. Story.

And if they're extending the zone to include the Malverns, Colwall, Ledbury and Hereford it'll be so that they can legitimately try to deal with the large amount of ticketless travel yoofs that board (especially at Malvern) heading towards Worcester for a day of loafing about.

[The Grecian]

I can't see how anyone could justifying PFing people joining at a non-PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station. On the Exmouth branch-line several stations e.g. Polsloe Bridge have no way whatsoever of buying a ticket before boarding. I think it's fair to say whatever posters might say there is no way FGW^▸ (First Great Western) could justify PFing people joining there. I'm not sure though that Penalty Zones have ever been applied, but I'm not a regular user.

In Bristol, there have been times in the past where the machine at Filton Abbey Wood was out of order so I wasn't able to buy a ticket beforehand and the guard never came round, so I had to ask for a ticket from the barrier staff. I've never had a problem doing this, including using a YP railcard discount .

[willc]

I personally believe that the whole country should become a penalty far zone!

Bit difficult given the large number of unstaffed stations that have no facilities whatever to buy tickets - or places like Moreton-in-Marsh, where on a busy morning you can queue for 10 or 15 minutes and still not get a ticket. Or should I just not get on the train and get to work an hour or more late?

Grecian, the stops on the Exmouth branch are a mixture of penalty and non-penalty, and not surprisingly Polsloe Bridge - once my local station and I don't think I ever saw another passenger on any occasion I used it - ain't one of them.

[Btline]

Hartlebury is in a penalty fare zone.

It's just that you can be PFed from that station!

[vacman]

Hartlebury is in a penalty fare zone.

It's just that you can be PFed from that station!

.............................i can't even be bothered to answer again..............

[Btline]

I'll make it simple:

Look at the map.

Hartlebury is on it.

Therefore it is in the penalty fare zone.

So trains calling are penalty fare trains.

But there are no ticket facilities/ permits here.

So passengers are exempt from p fares.

Understand?

Great malvern is not on the map.

But the trains pass through Worcester and Stourbridge which are on the map.

So trains calling are penalty fare trains.

There are ticket facilities here.

So P fares apply.

THE ABOVE IS WHAT IS MADE CLEAR BY POSTERS AT STATIONS AND ONBOARD THE TRAINS. IF THE ABOVE IS INCORRECT IN ANY WAY, THE POSTERS ARE MISLEADING.

[Chris from Nailsea]

If I may intercede, here:

From the National Rail Enquiries site, at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/hby/details.html

Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Hartlebury station.

It doesn't matter whether it is in the penalty fare zone: it's not a penalty fare station.

If you board a penalty fare train from a non-penalty fare station, you cannot be penalty fared.

Now, Btline, if your understanding of any poster is different, you really should take that up with those who produced such posters.

[IndustryInsider]

THE ABOVE IS WHAT IS MADE CLEAR BY POSTERS AT STATIONS AND ONBOARD THE TRAINS. IF THE ABOVE IS INCORRECT IN ANY WAY, THE POSTERS ARE MISLEADING.

Only if you misinterpret them. I think you're the only one doing that on this forum? By the way, the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) leaflet on Penalty Fares has a clear disclaimer stating "this leaflet is only intended as a guide and should not be regarded as a complete and authoritative statement of the regulations". Do the posters on trains and stations have a similar disclaimer?

[Btline]

Appranrltly the posters are the same all over the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). They are clearly not, as people fail to understand my arguments

Some people think the maps on the posters show non penalty fare area. Well, the ones in my area don't!

So I have no idea. And can you get rid of this thread I give up trying to explain to people.

THE ABOVE IS WHAT IS MADE CLEAR BY POSTERS AT STATIONS AND ONBOARD THE TRAINS. IF THE ABOVE IS INCORRECT IN ANY WAY, THE POSTERS ARE MISLEADING.

Only if you misinterpret them. I think you're the only one doing that on this forum? By the way, the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) leaflet on Penalty Fares has a clear disclaimer stating "this leaflet is only intended as a guide and should not be regarded as a complete and authoritative statement of the regulations". Do the posters on trains and stations have a similar disclaimer?

The posters say "if the train passes through the area shown on the map above then you're on a penalty fare train, and penalty fares apply."

How am I misunderstanding it?